In the rolling hills of Somerset, England, an ancient evil ripens alongside the grapes of Standing Stone Cellars …

Blood Vintage is out now on Kickstarter. Author J.F. Penn reads the sales description in the video here or watch below.

The perfect wine requires the darkest sacrifice. 

In the rolling hills of Somerset, England, an ancient evil ripens alongside the grapes of Standing Stone Cellars…

Rebecca never expected her architectural career to lead to the secluded rural village of Winbridge Hollow. But after a violent clash with eco-activists, she flees the chaos of London, desperate for a new start.

She seeks refuge at Standing Stone Cellars, a vineyard renowned for its award-winning wines and mysterious history, nestled in the shadow of ancient oaks and standing stones that have watched over the land for millennia.

But this vineyard is no sanctuary.

From the fires of Beltane to the shadows of Samhain, Rebecca finds herself ensnared in an ancient cycle of sacrifice and rebirth. The disappearance of her fellow workers amidst evidence of blood rites forces her to confront a horrifying truth: Standing Stone’s exceptional vintage is nourished by more than just sunlight and soil.

As the veil between worlds grows thin, Rebecca must make an impossible choice: embrace the dark legacy of the vineyard and secure her place among its guardians, or risk becoming the next offering to the Horned God that demands his due.

Blood Vintage is an atmospheric descent into folk horror, where the line between sacred and profane blurs with each sip of wine. Lose yourself in a world where pagan rituals and modern ambitions collide, and discover the terrible price of belonging in a place where the very earth demands blood.

The post The Perfect Wine Requires The Darkest Sacrifice. Blood Vintage Out Now first appeared on The Creative Penn.

The Third Act begins with another life-changing plot point. More than any preceding it, this plot point sets the protagonist’s feet on the path toward the final conflict in the Climax. From here, your clattering dominoes form a straight line as your protagonist hurtles toward an inevitable confrontation with the antagonistic force. Because the entire Third Act is full of big and important scenes, this opening plot point, by comparison, can sometimes seem less defined than the First Plot Point and the Midpoint. However, its thrust must be just as adamant.

The Third Plot Point represents a Low Moment for your characters. The thing they want most in the world will be almost within grasp—only to be dashed away—causing them to question their investment in the conflict. The subsequent Climax will be the period in which the characters rise from the ashes, ready to do battle from a place of inner wholeness. The Third Plot Point is the place from which they must rise.

What Is the Third Plot Point?

As the portal between the Second Act‘s end and the Third Act’s beginning, the Third Plot Point represents one of the story’s most significant shifts. Back at the 25% mark, the transition between the First and Second Acts signaled that the characters had left behind their Normal World and, with it, whoever they used to be. Now, this bookending transition into the Third Act signals they have entered the final proving ground. Everything they have learned, experienced, gained, and lost in the Second Act will be put to the final test.

Symbolically within the transformational arc of a story, the Third Plot Point represents death—with the possibility of rebirth, if the character manages to complete a Positive Change Arc. Often, this beat is referred to as the Dark Night of the Soul, indicating an intense period of internal suffering and questioning as the characters grapple with external losses while struggling to unify all the pieces of their newly evolved selves.

If they can successfully manage this, they will be able to embrace the story’s thematic Truth and rise into a new version of themselves, one with the capability to achieve moral and perhaps practical victory in the Climax. If they fail this intense test and cannot fully rebirth into a more coherent version of themselves, they will struggle to find a complete victory in the Climax. This weakness may cause them to lose the plot goal altogether. Even if they manage to seize the plot goal (perhaps through dubious means), they will experience a fatal moral failure that poisons their achievements.

The intensity of the character’s suffering at the Third Plot Point will depend on the nature of your story. Generally, whatever takes place here should be “the worst thing that has ever happened” within the scope of the story.

For Example:

• In Christopher Nolan’s Batman Begins, the vigilante Ra’s Al Ghul announces his intentions to destroy Gotham, then burns Bruce Wayne’s mansion and leaves him for dead.
• In Charlotte Brontë’s Jane Eyre, Jane discovers, on her wedding day, that Mr. Rochester is already married to a madwoman. This prompts her to flee her life at Thornfield, ending her relationship with the man she loves.
• In Charles Portis’s True Grit, young Mattie finds her father’s murderer and is captured by a gang of outlaws who threaten her life.

The symbolism of death is important and can be used literally. The characters may lose a loved one or perhaps even suffer significant injuries themselves. The death may also be metaphoric: perhaps they experience the death of a career or a relationship. This symbolism can emerge subtly through cues in the exterior setting that reflect the character’s inner questioning (e.g., perhaps they pass a funeral or observe a crushed flower on the sidewalk).

It is important that the characters face the “death” of the person they used to be. The challenge here is whether or not they will embrace this death and claim the subsequent rebirth.

The False Victory and the Low Moment

The Third Plot Point is made up of two important beats. The thematically crucial Low Moment is preceded by the equally important False Victory. One of the most significant features of this pairing is that it creates a natural arc to the beat. It begins in a seemingly positive state before plunging the characters into darkness. (I talk about this in more detail in my book Next Level Plot Structure.)

Even more significant is that this pairing creates the bridge between the “action phase” of the Second Act into the full-on transformation of the Third Act. Throughout the Second Act, particularly after the Midpoint, the characters have been rapidly progressing in their ability to understand the nature of both the internal and external conflict. Thanks to the Moment of Truth at the Midpoint, they recognized the potency of the story’s central Truth and began integrating it into both their internal landscape and their tactics in the external plot.

But there’s a catch.

Even though the characters claimed the Truth at the Midpoint, they have not yet fully rejected the Lie. Throughout the Second Half of the Second Act, they continued to cling to certain of their old limited perspectives from the First Act. More than that, as they became more and more proactive toward the end of the Second Half, they failed to see their blind spots. This leads them directly to the False Victory at the beginning of the Third Plot Point.

Whatever happens here is the result of a tactic the characters deliberately employed to reach their goal. They may have believed this gambit was the one that would finally lead them to success. Even if they were back on their heels and making a desperate choice, they acted according to everything they learned up to this point—but without realizing they have yet to fully face their blind spots.

This leads them to the Low Moment. In some stories, the False Victory will be only a short moment of hope before everything falls apart. Even in stories in which the False Victory is truly victorious in some way, the characters will suffer collateral damage. Sacrifices will be made, sometimes willingly, but usually because the characters’ choices create dire consequences. This will lead them to their soul-searching and, if they successfully transform, the complete death of their old Lie and complete rebirth into the New Truth.

For Example:

•  In What About Bob?, the protagonist Bob shows clear signs of improving his neuroses, but this leads directly to the mental breakdown of his psychiatrist Leo, which prompts Leo’s family to ask their friend Bob to leave.
• In Toy Story, Woody is on the brink of escaping from Sid’s room back to Andy’s house, only to have his plans thwarted when the rest of Andy’s toys see Buzz’s dismembered arm and believe Woody has hurt him once again.
• In A Christmas Carol, Scrooge joins the third and final spirit, having been much changed by his previous visitations, only to be shown a doomed future that includes his own death and that of Tiny Tim.

Where Does the Third Point Belong?

The Third Plot Point takes place at the 75% mark. Like the First Plot Point’s threshold between the First and Second Acts, the Third Plot Point creates a threshold between the Second and Third Acts. It is not properly a part of either act but provides the portal between them.

Timing becomes trickier the closer you get to the end. In longer works, such as novels, it can be easy to get carried away in the Second Act, but this can sometimes cramp the Third Plot Point. Alternately, in shorter works such as films, we often see an overemphasis on the Climax that ends up short-changing either the Third Plot Point’s Low Moment or trying to get it over with as early as the Second Pinch Point at the 62% mark. Although timing and pacing are never hard and fast propositions, it is important to evaluate the big picture of your story’s structural timing. Assess whether any structural sections are getting short-changed. Particularly when it comes to the transformational beats—the First Plot Point, the Midpoint, and the Third Plot Point—ensure they receive the spotlight they deserve.

The events of the Third Plot Point may create a lengthy sequence comprising the first half of the Third Act, leading right up to the Climax. There is much for the characters to experience and react to in this beat, all of which will lay the groundwork for their ability to take definitive conflict-ending action in the Climax. In action stories, most character arc adjustments should be completed before the Climax begins. In more relational stories, the Climactic Moment may be the character’s final decision about how to act upon the story’s Truth. Regardless, the Third Plot Point and subsequent scenes must be fully developed to provide a sound foundation for the story’s ending.

Examples of the Third Plot Point From Film and Literature

Pride and Prejudice: Just as Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy begin to grow closer while spending time at his Pemberley estate, word comes that Elizabeth’s youngest sister Lydia has run away with the scoundrel Mr. Wickham. Elizabeth must return home, not only fearing the worst for her sister and her family, but also believing Lydia’s scandalous actions have caused Mr. Darcy to revile her family forever.

It’s a Wonderful Life: After looking everywhere for the money Uncle Billy lost, George is forced to his lowest point when he approaches his nemesis Mr. Potter for a loan. When he offers his life insurance policy as collateral, Potter scoffs, “Why, you’re worth more dead than alive!” George sinks into soul-wrenching desperation as he drives to the river and contemplates killing himself so the policy can be cashed to repay the money.

Ender’s Game: Ender is forced into a fatal confrontation with the bully Bonzo. In a display of the ruthlessness that has made him so successful at Battle School, he kills Bonzo. He is devastated by his actions and nearly gives up on Battle School, fleeing to his family on Earth to contemplate who he is becoming.

Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World: This film provides an example of a Low Moment timed to take place at the Second Pinch Point, as Captain Jack Aubrey’s best friend Dr. Stephen Maturin is accidentally shot aboard ship. For the first time, Jack abandons his obsessive pursuit of the French privateer and takes his friend to the Galapagos Islands so he can be safely operated upon. The later turning point into the Third Act occurs when the Acheron is sighted nearby, setting up the final confrontation. This is not a Low Moment for Jack, but still sketches the beat’s emotions by being told through Stephen’s perspective and showing his disappointment that he will now have to abandon his long-awaited expedition to the Galapagos.

Top Things to Remember About the Third Plot Point

1. The Third Plot Point occurs at the 75% mark, providing a bridge between the Second and Third Acts.
2. The Third Plot Point may be an utter upheaval of the gains the characters thought they made in the Second Half of the Second Act (as in Pride and Prejudice), an unexpected event (as in It’s a Wonderful Life), a personal decision (as in Ender’s Game), or a meeting between protagonist and antagonist (as in Master and Commander).
3. The Third Plot Point begins with a False Victory, in which the characters use what they learned in the Second Act to try to gain the plot goal. They may experience a win or just the expectation of one.
4. The Low Moment follows on the heels of the False Victory and prompts the characters into deep soul-searching as they contemplate their choices and actions.
5. If the characters can successfully see through their blind spots to reach the story’s central thematic Truth, they can rise back up to definitively approach the plot goal in the Climax.

The Third Plot Point proves how far your characters have come on their personal journeys and whether they can integrate everything they’ve learned. The Climax is coming up next, and they will need to consolidate all their growth to reach their plot goal.

Stay tuned: Next week, we will talk about the Climax.

Wordplayers, tell me your opinions! What happens in your story’s Third Plot Point? Tell me in the comments!

Related Posts:

Part 1: 5 Reasons Story Structure Is Important

Part 2: The Hook

Part 3: The First Act

Part 4: The Inciting Event

Part 5: The First Plot Point

Part 6: The First Half of the Second Act

Part 7: The Midpoint

Part 8: The Second Half of the Second Act

Part 9: The Third Act

Click the “Play” button to Listen to Audio Version (or subscribe to the Helping Writers Become Authors podcast in Apple Podcast, Amazon Music, or Spotify).

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The post The Third Plot Point (Secrets of Story Structure, Pt. 10 of 12) appeared first on Helping Writers Become Authors.

How can you bring laughter into your books regardless of genre? What are the challenges of writing a novel after an award-winning career as a comedy writer for TV and radio? Dave Cohen shares his lessons learned in this interview.

In the intro, how to keep a career fresh over multiple books [Author Nation Podcast]; Best practices of successful indie authors [Draft2Digital];
Director James Cameron joins the board of Stability AI [Hollywood Reporter];
Google NotebookLM; Full audio expanding snippet; Photos from Ely Cathedral; Blood Vintage.

This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Dave Cohen is a multi-award-winning BBC comedy writer who has worked on shows like Horrible Histories, as well as a comedy novelist, podcaster, and author of nonfiction. His latest book is Funny Up Your Fiction: How to Add Light, Shade, and Laughs to Your Novel.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• The shift from writing for TV to self-publishing novels
• Why comedy is important for writers
• Writing for individual sense of humour vs. broader appeal
• Constructing characters that readers will find funny
• Avoiding cliches in comedy
• Creating covers for comic novels based on genre crossovers
• Cancel culture and its affect on writing humour
• Tips for keeping a positive mindset and creating opportunities

You can find Dave at DaveCohen.org.uk.

Transcript of Interview with Dave Cohen

Joanna: Dave Cohen is a multi-award-winning BBC comedy writer who has worked on shows like Horrible Histories, as well as a comedy novelist, podcaster, and author of nonfiction. His latest book is How to Write a Funny Novel. So welcome to the show, Dave.

Dave: Hi. Thanks very much for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Joanna: I’m excited to talk to you today. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into books and self-publishing after focusing more on writing for screen and performance in previous decades.

Dave: Well, I’d always wanted to be a novelist, really since I was a teenager, but I got a little bit distracted on the way. I happened to spend 10 years as a stand-up comedian, and that was followed by about 20 years of writing for comedy for TV and radio.

It was never quite the right time to start that novel writing career. Then I got to my 59th birthday, this was in 2017, and I finally thought, well, this is the time that I decide I have to write the novel now. I have to do it now and be damned.

So I did, and I wrote my first novel. I was very pleased, and I got it all ready to send off to agents. I finished it and it was ready March 2020, at which point COVID happened.

Every one of my comedy friends and colleagues, stand-up comedians, writers, all of the people who are far more successful than me, were suddenly out of work. So they had to think, “What am I going to do next? I’ll write a book.”

So I suddenly thought, ah, right, my book isn’t going to get anywhere with an agent, I might as well self-publish. That’s the next part of the journey, and that’s how I’ve ended up here now.

Joanna: Just go into that bit more then because obviously working a couple of decades with the BBC—which if people don’t know, as there’s a lot of people in America, it’s probably the most traditional of traditional media you could possibly imagine.

How did you break out of the opinion of the traditional media around self-publishing?

I mean, things have obviously changed since I self-published back in 2007, but how did you get around that?

Dave: Well, I mean, first of all, I would say people think of the BBC as this sort of very respectable giant monolith, but actually it’s loads and loads of different quirky little places.

So it sounds great to say writing for the BBC, but a lot of that was writing for BBC Radio, which was about five people in a broom cupboard. Also children’s TV, which is only three people in a smaller cupboard.

So the kind of pioneering way of the BBC is it’s able to make things despite this sort of reputation as this very fusty corporation, rather than because of it. I think that’s very much the kind of spirit that I found fairly straightforwardly, actually.

That’s one of the things that was fairly easy to come to from being in the world of TV writing, was moving away from the BBC that’s just full of people who just do it and do it for love. So from that point of view, it was a fairly straightforward move.

I think that the harder move was coming from being somebody who was a professional writer and was used to a process, that often ended up in rejection, but it was still a process anyway. So moving from that to a situation, the jungle, I suppose, of self-publishing, where it’s free for all.

Joanna: Yes, and there are obviously pros and cons in that. I mean, you mentioned your previous writing, and one of the things you say in the book is that much of it was quite short, lyrics and shorter things.

What were the challenges in the craft of writing a full novel after very different creativity in the past?

Dave: Well, this probably sounds quite stupid, but it’s actually true. The number of words, indeed, is quite a challenge because a single joke can be four words long.

There’s a great comedian, Tim Vine, a British comedian, and he had a joke which went, “Velcro, what a rip off.” That’s a joke he did that’s four words long. So the idea is, oh, what do I do? Do I have to write 20,000 four-word jokes?

Obviously, the numbers thing is part of the issue. Like a half-hour sitcom is about 4000 words long. To develop a new idea for a sitcom and to write a pilot script for one, it’s quite a lot of work.

It’s almost not quite as much work as developing a novel, a whole novel, but it’s months of playing with stuff and thinking of things. So the words was the first thing, but then the next problem was going to the other extreme.

It was like, aha! I can write as much as I want now. So you’d end up overwriting. The sky wasn’t just blue, it was a pastel blue with the clouds breezing along. You go, oh, I can just do this. Whereas when you’re writing a script, you just have to get straight to the point. “Character knocks on door, other character answers, straight into conversation.”

So, yes, one of the main things was overcompensating. That did lead me to another true fact, I think of whatever you’re writing, in whatever form you’re writing in, whether it’s screenplays, novels, books, jokes, whatever, you have to keep cutting all the time. Cut, cut, cut.

You can always overwrite, and you always need to get to the point. I think just one other thing, the main other thing that I learned was you don’t actually have to be funny all the time when you’re writing a novel. I think that would just be too much. It’d be like banging the reader over the head with a plastic mallet.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. Oh, well, that’s interesting. Well, let’s come back to the comedy then. Why is comedy so important for writers, anyway? I mean, I write darker books, and some people tell me that they laugh in my books, and I certainly didn’t intend it. Or specifically funny books, more like yours.

Why is laughter so important?

Dave: I mean, because the Bible tells us it is. You know the phrase, “laughter is the best medicine,” do you know where that’s from?

Joanna: It’s got to be from Proverbs or something.

Dave: That’s correct. Yes, yes. With your background in theology, I thought you might get that. Yes, it’s from Proverbs. Laughter is the best medicine, and people love laughter.

I grew up always loving comedy, listening to comedy on the radio. Also just the great thing was the whole family, we would all sit around the TV, and there were some great TV shows in Britain in the 1970s. We’d all sit around and watch Dad’s Army and Reggie Perrin and Morecambe and Wise.

Comedy, it’s just lovely. It brings people together, really.

Joanna: It’s difficult though, isn’t it? I mean, you talk there about sitting around together. I think maybe it’s partly my family, but my brother is very funny and laughs a lot, and I laugh with him, but when we were kids, I would just be like, I don’t even know why he’s finding this funny, this is ridiculous.

People have different views of what is funny.

So how do we write a novel where you don’t really have the delivery timing that you would in stand up. In stand up, you’re reacting to the crowd, and you can do all that. Or like when I’m speaking professionally, I can see how things are landing.

With a novel, or with a short story or whatever, you can’t see the audience’s reaction. So how are you dealing with this individual sense of humour and broader appeal when you’re writing a novel?

Dave: Well, the first thing, just before I answer that specific question, I would like to say this book that I’ve written now, How to Write a Funny Novel, is as much for me to learn by writing that down.

The first thing that became very clear to me was I needed to distinguish between what we might call a funny novel. Like, say, Bridget Jones books or PG Wodehouse, those are just funny novels that you sit and you laugh and you read them in a half a day or whatever.

Then there are also books that are written in genre, and you add humor to them. So you might think of something like, say, the Richard Osman Murder Mystery books. These are great books, but they’re funny as well. Sophie Kinsella writes romance, but those books are very funny.

So there are two types of comedy in that sense. There is writing as a style, say, and writing as a genre. I think for you, as a writer, to find your funny.

Going for another old proverb. Sorry to go even further back, but we’re with Socrates now. Socrates said, “Know thyself.” That’s one of the key elements, I think.

When you come across a funny character, one of the key elements is they lack self-awareness.

If you want to write a funny character, you’re going to need awareness of your own weaknesses and foibles.

I know in drama, and in fact, I know you’ve written a book about this, about discovering yourself and finding your dark side. In comedy, you don’t quite need to go that far, but you need to find what I call “cringe corner”. You need to find those elements about yourself.

Like, how do you react to certain people? What irritates you? Why when you’re standing in the queue in the post office and the woman in front of you is taking 20 minutes to buy a stamp, why are you getting so angry? What’s the flaw in your character that’s making you do this?

I’ve got an example in How to Write a Funny Novel of a story, a thing that happened to me in 1982. So this is going back to my early 20s.

I was involved in setting up a music festival, and I was handing out checks to people, not knowing that these checks were going to bounce the next day. I was potentially going to get into big trouble for this and go to jail, possibly.

Luckily, a couple of rock stars paid off the money, and the losses that the festival made were paid. After that time, I got very angry with the people who put me in that position, and I held this grudge.

I realized in 2022, 40 years later, I was still holding a grudge against these people from 1982. I think about it, and what was the point of that? What good was that doing anybody? I mean, it was certainly not me. I was arguing with this guy in my head, and he wasn’t there to answer. He was just in my head.

I realized that this is just the most ridiculous thing that I’m holding onto this grudge. It actually became a very useful thing for me, not that particular story, but it became a useful thing for the second novel in my series, Barry Goldman, which is very loosely autobiographical.

I was able to bring all of the anger, 40 years of realization, where I was able to kind of put that into the book. It helped the character, I think.

Joanna: It’s interesting, that kind of situational thing. You mentioned Richard Osman. I eventually picked up The Thursday Murder Club. I was like, oh, it’s so popular because he’s famous. In the UK he’s a famous guy, and so it can’t be good.

Then I just chortled my way through the whole thing. I’ve read all of them, pre-ordered them. I love that series.

You’re right about the sort of ridiculousness. His main narrator, you know that they’re in a retirement home, and his main narrator is just so funny. She’s talking about what’s going on, and gossiping, and it’s all funny, even though she’s not trying to be.

You just think, oh, that’s just getting into that character. I mean, you mentioned there your Barry Goldman book.

How do we construct a character that readers will find funny, even though that character is not standing around telling jokes?

Dave: I think writing comedy, adding funny to a novel or writing a funny novel, is not a very different process from writing any other type of novel.

If you think about what you need when you’re starting to come up with an idea for a novel, it’s the same as what you need for anything, a drama, a movie or whatever. You’ve got these four principal elements that everybody has.

You have a character, or two characters, possibly. The character has a goal, and that’s the second thing. Then there are obstacles in the way of that goal. Then the fourth thing is the world that these people inhabit. That’s every single story ever written, 99.99% of stories, they are that.

A character goes on a journey. They’ve got a goal. Then they meet these obstacles, they fight them, they slay the dragon, whatever. So you start at that very general place, and there’s just two crucial differences with a comedy character in that situation.

They still go on the same journey, and they’ve got the goals, and they’ve got the obstacles. The two differences are that when you get to the end of a drama, your character has been through hell, they’ve slain the dragon, whatever, they’ve saved the world, but they’ve also learnt something along the way.

They’ve had, a lovely Greek word, catharsis. They’re a different person at the end compared to the beginning. In comedy, that doesn’t happen. I mean, especially in sitcom, a character just comes back week in, week out to make the same mistakes because —

Comedy characters never learn.

It’s true in novels as well. Even when they get to the end and they’ve solved the problem, they’ve got the girl or whatever, they still haven’t quite changed. So that’s number one.

The second thing, which is really the most crucial difference between characters in drama and comedy, is that in drama, we often talk about the protagonist is the main character and the antagonist is the enemy character.

More often than not, most times in comedy, the antagonist is the same person. So the obstacles are your obstacles. The flaws in your character have come due to this lack of self-awareness. So the biggest enemy to a comedy character is staring back at them in the mirror.

Joanna: That’s so interesting that you say comedy characters never learn. They just keep coming back and making the same mistakes. My husband recently really got into the show Silicon Valley. Have you seen that?

Dave: I haven’t, no, but I’ve heard lots of good things about that.

Joanna: You would understand it completely because I got annoyed. I mean, it’s got like six seasons or something. I was like, “Look, I know exactly how these characters are going to react every time.” He’s laughing away, and I laughed away a little bit, but then I was like, it’s just the same every single episode.

Is it that the success of these types of shows, is it that people really want—They crave that same experience which means that the character can never learn?

Dave: Yes, I think there’s a few things there. There’s a sort of but for the grace of God go I that he’s going to do that again.

If you think about the Charlie Brown, the Peanuts cartoon, there’s this running gag that just never gets old. “Honestly, Charlie, I’m not going to take the ball away this time. I’m going to leave it there. You can kick the ball.” Of course, Lucy takes it away at the last moment. It’s every time.

It’s like yes, you can look at that from a logical point of view and say, well, he should just not try kicking the ball again, but that’s the sort of thing that’s part of the lack of self-awareness.

I can show that as a sort of optimism of a person. They just can’t believe that anyone would be so mean that. They have such faith in humanity that they’re going to keep trying to do this.

Every time, as a comedy writer, you have to find a new way of putting that character in a difficult situation.

There’s a great British TV comedy writer, Dennis Norden. He described every joke as a momentary removal of a sympathy.

So when you see that person walk into a lamp post, or fall flat on their backside, or do the thing that they keep doing, you sort of laugh at them, but it’s momentary because you kind of feel like, yeah, I know what that’s like.

Joanna: I was thinking as you were talking, about Dilbert, the cartoon, and also The Office, the show that we had here in the UK and also in the US. Again, it’s very normal situations, and we recognize the working culture.

It’s funny because we recognize those characters. Those characters, you know, the bad manager, it’s kind of a cliche, isn’t it?

How do we avoid cliches in comedy?

Dave: Yes, that’s a very good question. Nine times out of ten, or a lot of times, we don’t. Again, it’s the same as avoiding cliches in any form, really. Coming back to what I’ve already spoken about, in a sense you’re bringing your self-awareness to some things.

So I cliches are actually very good at the starting point when you’re creating a comedy show. Again, it also works with drama. What is this show about? It’s about a fish out of water.

So, yes, I suppose the answer is that you put your cliches into the theme of what something’s about. Cliches are cliches because they are shortcuts to truth. So everybody gets that straight away.

Someone like Arthur Dent in Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, he’s a fish out of water. He’s out of his depth. So you’ve got a story that’s as original and startling as the Hitchhiker’s Guide, but you’ve still got these kind of comedy characters. So it’s the places that you put your characters in.

Yes, they’re doing the same things over and over, but you avoid cliche because you keep coming back to the character, as I keep doing talking to you now.

Joanna: Yes, it’s very interesting. So your Barry Goldman books, you mentioned they’re loosely autobiographical and that they are about a stand-up comedian and how his life developed. So was that what came to you when you wanted to write the novel?

I mean, that’s obviously a very different approach to the Richard Osman Thursday Murder Club, a load of retirees in a retirement home.

Did you feel like there was just too much comedy in your own life not to put that on the page?

Dave: Well, yes, and I partly put that down to my lack of experience. Again, this is quite a common thing that I find with people when they’re starting out. The first thing that people often want to write in comedy is their story.

The reason for this is quite valid because the two pieces of advice you hear over and over again for writers are, number one is write what you know. Number two is write in your own voice.

These are phrases that are banded about, but they need some careful examination, because just because this thing happened to you, doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to be the best person to write about it.

I think writing what you don’t know is as important, that you’re finding out stuff. When you find out new stuff, you don’t know a huge amount, but you know just enough more than the person who’s going to read your book to be like one step ahead of them.

So the next point is about writing in your voice. Well, this is my story, so it’s going to be my voice. Again, I don’t think that’s really what one’s voice is. I think you find your voice just by writing and trying new things all the time.

It’s also the sum of everything that you’ve ever done up to the point that you start writing. So I think —

It’s more important to give yourself permission to lie.

I think now, I’m just writing book three, the last in the Barry Goldman trilogy, and compared to the first one, it’s just there’s nothing in book three that’s really autobiographical. Little episodes here or there, but the first book was much more about me.

I think that was just me writing, getting that first novel out of the way so that I could become a novelist. I think a piece of advice I give to people is, if you’re thinking, “I’m going to write my story, that’s my first novel,” maybe just park that for a moment and maybe just try and come up with a different thing.

You won’t be so emotionally attached to it, and you might be able to look at the bigger picture, rather than be kind of stuck inside it.

Joanna: It’ll be interesting to see where you go. I was thinking then of David Baddiel, who was originally very much a comedy writer. Then over the years—I mean, obviously he still does some comedy—but over the years, his books have become very serious and tackling some really big topics.

He’s really changed as a writer over the decades that I’ve certainly been reading him. I think that’s important too, isn’t it? It’s not like you’re necessarily only ever going to write comedy books.

I think your covers, for example, the cover branding makes it very clear what kind of book people can expect.

Dave: Yes, I think that’s true. I mean, I’ve been writing for 40 odd years now. David’s been writing for almost as long, probably 30 years.

In fact, it’s a sort of parallel almost, in that I was doing stand-up before him, and I was the Jewish comedy stand up at that time. Then as I stopped, he took over, and that became his role. Then he went on, and he did a lot of this stuff about football and things. Each new project brings new things, and we get old, and we have different experiences.

So I think there is a bit of a problem with writing comedy, writing a comic novel. I do listen to a lot of podcasts about self-publishing, and people do attach a lot of importance to the cover.

It’s fine if you’re writing, like Richard Osman, you’re writing a murder mystery. You look at the cover of Richard Osman’s book, and it looks like all the other covers of all the murder mysteries. It just happens to be funny as well.

Likewise, you look at Emily Henry, an American romance novelist, you look at her covers, and they’re very similar to the sorts of covers of romance novels, but hers happened to be funny as well.

A comic novel, I mean, I can’t make a cover that’s like Bridget Jones because it’s not a romance. Or I can’t do a cover like Hitchhiker’s Guide, it’s not science fiction.

So yes, I did try with the novels to get something that conveys humor without having the luxury of being able to say, “Oh, and you’ll find it in this shelf in the library or at the bookshop.”

Joanna: No, it is difficult. As you say, it’s more of a crossover in terms of where it fits. I understand the difficulty in marketing that.

I did also just want to touch on something that a lot of people are very scared about in this culture, this sort of cancel culture outrage. There are certainly some comics on Netflix, and right now as we’re recording, the Edinburgh Festival.

People get offended, and they can put bad reviews, or they can tear people down on social media. I was thinking even how publishers have rewritten Roald Dahl, which was my childhood comedy, and how dated things are.

I was thinking about Benny Hill. I mean, you could not have a Benny Hill film on TV anymore. I mean, it’s just really offensive.

How do we tackle fear of cancel culture with humor?

Because it often does skirt the line of what’s accessible.

Dave: I will answer that with regard to the specifics of the moment, and cancel culture and all these handy words of the moment. But I would like to go to a more important point which I think obscures this, which I think a lot of people fear writing comedy.

Interestingly, I find when people come to me as writers wanting to do stuff, it’s almost invariably women, because men just think, “Oh, I’m going to write comedy,” and that’s how it is. Women will write to me and say, “I want to write comedy, but I’m not sure that I’m funny enough.”

Actually, there is this sort of problem that people are worried that, like you say, you’ll get a bad review or whatever, and that does happen. Also, it is true that comedy, unlike drama, it’s like you were saying with your husband, he’s laughing there, and you’re getting annoyed.

If you watch a drama and you don’t like it, you just go, “Oh, I didn’t like that.” You watch a comedy show and you don’t like it, you get really angry. “How could they think that’s funny?” Like you were saying earlier, “I don’t find that funny. How can anyone else find it funny?”

So you will get that, I’m afraid, but actually, people need to overcome that fear. The worst thing with comedy, and I certainly found this with my first novel, is indifference, much more than hostility people.

You might think, “Oh, I’m a bit worried someone might take offense at this.” Well, just be grateful that someone’s even actually got around to reading it. So that’s the first thing I would say about that.

So yes, you do have to have a little bit of a thick skin, I think, to be able to do comedy. If you think you’re funny, just try it and send it out to people and see what people say.

Someone will find it funny, not everyone. So the people who don’t find it funny say, “Oh, I didn’t find that funny,” but some people will. So that’s something that I really would encourage people because it is definitely something that does frustrate me sometimes.

I’ll see very good, very funny writers who are held back by that thing of, well, some people won’t find it funny, and I’m a bit nervous about putting it out there. Well, that’s fine. That’s part of being a writer is being nervous about what you put out there. I think that is just much more important.

I think it’s quite hard to get canceled nowadays. I wouldn’t worry about that. Certainly, Roald Dahl and Benny Hill, they’re not around to worry about it anymore. That’s somebody else’s problem, not your problem.

Just write what you can and write what you want to. Write because you love writing and you want to be a better writer.

That always, for me, is the number one key thing.

Joanna: It’s interesting thinking about dated language. It doesn’t relate to getting canceled, but when I rewrote my first novel, Stone of Fire, after more than a decade, I found conversation in there that I just would not write any more. There were terms that have really dated in terms of just technology and stuff.

I rewrote those and was very happy that as a self-published author, you can just rewrite and upload new files. That is a possibility.

Dave: Yes, it’s interesting because that’s been something that I’ve had to revisit. The first song that I wrote for Horrible Histories was a song about the four King Georges, Georges I, II, III, and IV.

It’s still a very popular song, and people go to that song, but there are lines in that song that there’s no way that I would write lines like that now. That was only 2008, so it’s not like it was eons away.

I think there have definitely been very big changes in language, and I think if you are able to go back—and this is one of the great things, as you say, about self-publishing.

In fact, there were a couple of things in the first Barry book that after I published it the first time, somebody read a couple of things and said, oh, that’s a bit dodgy. Even though it was from a sympathetic point of view, it still potentially came across as something that people might be upset by.

So I was able to, like you say, just go into the document, change it, and put it back again in 72 hours, rather than eight months or whatever.

Joanna: I was just thinking there, I think Dickens republished one of his stories after some feedback for something that was taken as much more offensive. So I think this is not a new thing, people changing what they’ve written. I hope what you’ve said helps people just put stuff out there.

I like that you mentioned obscurity because this is so true. When we see comics canceled or people taken down on social media, they are often very famous. The reality is—

Most of us put our books out and nobody even notices.

Dave: I mean, an interesting one is, I mean, there’s a couple of comedians, notably Ricky Gervais and Dave Chappelle, who their job, they think, is to offend. They do that job really well.

People get offended, and they say, “Look at what Ricky Gervais has just done.” The algorithm, which doesn’t understand divisiveness or woke cancer culture, says, “Oh, twice as many people are telling me to show this Ricky Gervais thing. This must be really popular.”

So for people like Ricky Gervais and other people, it actually helps them because the algorithm doesn’t do that politics. It’s just the algorithm.

Joanna: It is interesting. I mean, there’ll be people who have different attitudes listening, and I think that’s where I was coming from in terms of the question around comedy, because obviously Ricky Gervais and Dave Chappelle are really extreme on some of these things.

I’ve got to admit, like on the Netflix specials for both of them, I did go and have a look because they got so much flack. I was like, how? Then, of course, some of it really is offensive, but much of it was very, very funny.

I think that’s the other thing, isn’t it? It’s almost like, can we laugh at some things and not others? That’s partly what humor is.

There is such a fine line between funny and offensive.

Dave: To come back to your Dickens example. The example I know, which might be the one you’re thinking of, is certainly when Oliver Twist came out. A lot of people complained about Fagin being an antisemitic character.

Dickens’ response in the next book, I think it’s Our Mutual Friend, he has this character called Mr. Riah, who’s this nice, lovely Jewish man. It’s almost like, I wish you just apologized for Fagan and moved on.

This character was almost like an over compensation. “Mr. Riah is a lovely man. He has kindly eyes. He’s a generous money lender. He’s wonderful person.” You just think, ah, come on, Dickens. This isn’t a Dickensian character.

Joanna: Oh, being a writer has always been a struggle, for sure.

Now, we’re almost out of time, but I wanted to come to one of your other short books called Ready Steady, Joke!: Why Hard Times are the Best Times to Build Your Writing Career?

I love that attitude. So obviously you mentioned COVID before, which was very tough for live performances, but there are always challenges and always difficulties.

What are some of your tips for finding opportunities and keeping a positive mindset?

Dave: Well, I mean, the first thing that I would say in terms of keeping a positive mindset is this thing of doing it because you want to do it, because you want to become a better writer.

Try not to think that I am going to write the great comic novel of the 21st century, whatever. Just think, I want to get better. I love writing. I love comedy. I want to get better for the sake of it.

To get in TV and radio, and it’s got harder over the years, just as it’s got harder in every section of TV and movies and whatever. It’s just harder and harder to sell stuff nowadays.

There are actual ways into British and American TV. If you can write jokes, and some people can do it instinctively, but you can learn how to write jokes. You can learn how to write topical jokes. You’ve got these shows on US TV, daily shows, and then you’ve got topical shows on the BBC in Britain as well.

These shows just eat up loads and loads and loads of material. They’re always looking for new writers. If you can get a credit on a show like that, and you start to get to know TV producers and people.

I think just networking is a good thing to do because you find out what else is going on in the world of TV and radio. You might meet another producer who likes your sense of humor. Again, coming back to how humor is subjective.

You know, you meet a producer who’s on your humor wavelength, and they’ll try and get your projects made. So that’s getting to know people within that industry.

It’s harder in books because the publishing world is more of a closed shop, but within self-publishing, there’s a great community. Getting to know other people in the community is an important thing.

The other thing I’d say is people often say, if you want to know how to write a novel, you should learn to write short stories. It is good advice, I think, but if you want to write comedy, it’s worth trying to learn how to write comedy sketches.

Like sort of two or three minute self-contained sketches like they have on Saturday Night Live, like Key & Peele. In Britain, shows like Little Britain. Big Train was a great show. Sketches are great because—

Sketches are to sitcom, what the short story is to the novel.

It’s like a single chapter that’s a self-contained story, and it uses all the elements that you will use in your writing your novel.

It uses character, world, goal, objects, dialogue, twists and punch line, whatever the punch line might be. So that’s a really good thing to do. Don’t just think, oh, I’m going to do this now. Just plan long term, think about the future. Above all, try to become a better writer.

Joanna: I was thinking then of the comedic aspects within self-publishing as well. Just trying to keep a positive mindset around some of the challenges we have. Not just the writing side, obviously the publishing, and the marketing, and the changes going on. I mean, it’s a sitcom all of its own, isn’t it?

Dave: Yes. I mean, without the laughs, I’ve been finding.

Joanna: Oh, I don’t know. In terms of cliches, I know you were at London Book Fair this year, and I’ve been going to London Book Fair for a decade. Obviously missed the COVID years when it wasn’t on, but I go to London Book Fair, and I can just see the cliches coming.

I think having a positive attitude wherever you are in your writing journey can be super helpful.

Laughing with other author friends is often the antidote, perhaps.

Dave: Yes, and I just want to say before we go, the difference between being in the world of like constant rejection of writing for TV and stuff, and then the world where anybody can do anything of self-publishing, yes, it’s a bit scary.

But from a positive point of view, I do think that self-publishing—and I’m not just saying this, Jo—but I think your podcast, in particular, is just a fantastic resource. There’s just so much. I think I’ve learned more from listening to your show about how to really be a novelist.

It doesn’t end once you type “the end.” That’s just the beginning, really. You need to be out there and to be marketing. You don’t have all the sort of machine of the industry behind you, but you have control over your own work. That’s just a really energizing thing, I find.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where can people find you, and your books, and everything you do online?

Dave: Well, I’ve just started a new podcast. I used to do a podcast called Sitcom Geeks, and so the clue was in the title. We did about 200 episodes, but we stopped because nobody was making sitcoms anymore, and also we were doing other things.

I’ve now got a more general podcast called A Write Funny Podcast, as in W-R-I-T-E. Then the book How to Write a Funny Novel will be out end of September. You can find out all about these things at my website, which is DaveCohen.org.uk.

Joanna: Well, thanks so much for your time, Dave. That was great.

Dave: Thank you very much for having me.

The post How To Make Readers Laugh. Writing Humour With Dave Cohen first appeared on The Creative Penn.

The Third Act is what readers, writers, and characters have all been waiting for. This final section of the story is the point. It’s what you’ve been building up to all this time. If the First and Second Acts were engaging and aesthetic labyrinths, the Third Act is where X marks the spot. You’ve found the treasure. Now it’s time to start digging. Like the previous acts, the Third Act opens with a bang, but unlike the other two acts, it never lets up. From this point on, everyone is in for a wild ride. All the threads you’ve been weaving up to this point must now be artfully tied together.

The Third Act occupies the book’s final quarter, beginning around the 75% mark and continuing until the end. This is a relatively small portion of the story, particularly when considering all that must be accomplished.

Within the Third Act, we find the final four structural beats:

• The Third Plot Point – 75%
• The Climax – 88%
• The Climactic Moment — 98%
• The Resolution – 100%

 

The Third Plot Point, which we will discuss next week, is the final major turning point within the story. Like the First Plot Point, it does not explicitly belong to either the Second Act that precedes it or the Third Act that follows it. Rather, it creates the threshold between the two. Often referred to as the Dark Night of the Soul, the Third Plot Point is a moment of reckoning in which the protagonist faces the consequences of previous choices and decides how to re-commit to a final pursuit of the plot goal.

The Climax, which we will discuss in Part 11, begins roughly halfway through the Third Act. It signals the protagonist’s final push toward the plot goal and the final confrontation with the antagonistic force. It will decide the outcome of the conflict once and for all, determining whether or not the protagonist will gain the plot goal.

Finally, the Third Act ends with the Resolution, which we will discuss in Part 12. After the conflict has been decided in the Climax, the Resolution offers a last moment to tie off loose ends and show how the characters have been affected by the story’s events.

One reason the Third Act picks up the pace compared to the previous acts is the simple necessity of cramming in everything that needs to be addressed before the book runs out of time and space.

• All of the foreshadowing planted in the previous acts must now be fulfilled.
• All the characters (and other essential playing pieces, à la the Maltese Falcon) must be assembled.
• Subplots must be satisfactorily tied off.
• Both the protagonist and the antagonistic force must have time to actualize the final aspects of their intentions.
• The protagonist must face inner demons and complete the character arc in concert with the final conflict with the antagonistic force.
• Finally, everything must be capped with a satisfying Resolution.

That’s a lot to accomplish in 25% of the book, so there’s no time to waste. In the Third Act, we can see one of the primary benefits of structure: for the story to work, all the pieces in the First and Second Acts must be in place to lay the foundation for the finale.

Paying Off All Foreshadowing

Foreshadowing has two parts: the plant and the payoff. If the First Act was about setting up your story’s playing pieces—characters, settings, and stakes—your Third Act is about utilizing all these elements to their fullest capacity. Sometimes, this can mean returning to settings that haven’t been used since the First Act or reintroducing certain characters.

Most importantly, the Third Act is about fulfilling any expectations you have raised in readers. Some of these may be general expectations. For example, readers may expect an exciting action sequence in the Climax. Or they may expect the romantic couple to experience a Happily Ever After.

They will also expect all of their questions to be answered. In the First Act, you raised many questions to hook their attention. Now that you’ve successfully kept their attention until the end, you must satisfy their curiosity. If a backstory secret was teased earlier in the story, that must be revealed by the end. If tension (sexual or otherwise) was brewing between two characters in earlier scenes, that must come to a head before or during the Third Act. If a specific emotion (e.g., fear, desire, foreboding, grief) was emphasized, then you must make sure you’ve explained its origin and given it space to express.

Remember, the more heavily you emphasize a foreshadowing plant earlier, the more dramatic the payoff should be. If you’ve hinted at that backstory secret over and over again, you will heighten reader anticipation for the reveal. For example, if you’ve indicated a character was traumatized by something in the past, readers won’t be satisfied if the backstory event turns out to be pedestrian. This doesn’t mean you must always go big with your reveals; it does mean the intensity of the foreshadowing should be crafted to match the intensity of the reveal.

Fulfilling Your Character’s Arc

This final quarter of the story is a place of no escape for your characters. Their backs are against a wall, and their only remaining option is to fully confront the antagonistic force. All their reactions and actions in the previous acts have led them to a point where they must face every last one of their weaknesses and mistakes. If they’re to triumph, they must allow themselves to be broken—and then to either rise from the ashes with new wisdom and strength or to fall even further into destruction.

When your characters reach the Climax, they will make a last attempt to obtain both their story-long goal and their deepest Need (which may or may not be the same and, indeed, may even be antithetical). They’re putting all their cards on the table. If they don’t win now, they never will. The stakes are at their highest in the Third Act.

The First Act was where your characters were confronted with a new set of problems that required them to change their way of being. This kicked off their character arcs. The Second Act was where they slowly began learning the ineffectiveness of old perspectives, as well as new modes of being that allowed them to move through the world more effectively. The Third Act is now where these new viewpoints and skills will be tested.

A good Third Act will resonate deeply with audiences exactly because it hammers home the reality that true personal transformation is never easy. Beginning with the Low Moment at the Third Plot Point, the characters will face the consequences of their mistakes. They will learn of the sacrifices they will yet be required to make to finish their transformation and reach their plot goals.

Not all stories will see the characters emerging triumphant from their character arcs. Indeed, in contrast to Positive Change Arcs in which a character successfully transforms, Negative Change Arcs are all about characters who are unable to adapt to a new and more efficacious way of being in the world, leading them to moral failure and probably practical failure within the plot. Whichever type of story you’re telling, you’ll need to set it up in the First Act and pay it off in the Third. (For more about Positive Change Arcs, Negative Change Arcs, and Flat Arcs, see my book Creating Character Arcs and its accompanying Creating Character Arcs Workbook.)

Ending the Conflict

The story ends when the plot ends. The plot ends when the conflict ends. And the conflict ends when the protagonist’s relationship to the plot goal is definitively decided one way or another. Either the protagonist reaches the plot goal and “wins” or fails to reach the plot goal and “loses.” Sometimes, this will correspondingly mean the antagonist loses or wins instead. In such stories, the Climax is usually decided by a confrontation between the protagonist and antagonist—a winner-takes-all final contest.

For Example:

• The antagonist cannot stop the protagonist from achieving the plot goal, as in Star Wars: A New Hope when Darth Vader fails to kill Luke Skywalker before he blows up the Death Star.
• The plot goal is destroying the antagonist, as in Stranger Things when Eleven obliterates the Demogorgon with her telekinetic powers.
• The protagonist and antagonist meet in a mano-a-mano competition, which either may win, as in Rocky when the antagonist Apollo Creed wins the boxing match.

However, the outcome of the conflict may also be more complex.

For Example:

• The protagonist may lose the plot goal but gain a more valuable moral victory, as in Rocky.
• The outcome may not be a destruction of one of the characters but rather a union between them, as in romances in which the love interests represent each other’s antagonistic forces as they work through the relational conflict to reach their ultimate desire of being together.
• The protagonist may “win” the plot goal away from the antagonist, only to realize the victory is compromised, as in The Maltese Falcon, in which detective Sam Spade recovers the priceless artifact but must have his lover arrested.

As we will discuss more in Part 11, the Climax represents a definitive closure of the conflict that halts the story’s forward momentum. Although later permutations of the same conflict may arise in sequels, the story arc shared in this book reaches a conclusive end.

Examples of the Third Act From Film and Literature

Pride and Prejudice: After learning the terrible news that her youngest sister Lydia has scandalously run away with the scoundrel Wickham, Elizabeth returns home from her interlude with Mr. Darcy at Pemberley. The Third Act is a whirlwind of revelations, as Wickham mysteriously marries Lydia and Darcy’s aunt descends upon Elizabeth with demands that she promise never to marry her nephew. The plot and theme in this story are exceptionally tight with no loose pieces. Everything that was set up in the First Act and developed in the Second comes to fruition in the Third, as Elizabeth must recalibrate her opinions of Mr. Darcy in a realization of his worthiness and her love for him. Everything is complicated nicely with the dramatic doubt of whether her folly, not to mention Lydia’s, has forever compromised her ability to be with him.

It’s a Wonderful Life: The Second Act ends with Uncle Billy losing the Building & Loan’s $8,000 and George frantically attempting to recover it. This dramatic event is followed by the appearance of the angel Clarence and his granting of George’s wish to “never be born.” The Third Act is made up almost entirely of George’s exploration of the tragedies that would have filled Bedford Falls without his presence and influence. The main antagonist isn’t present in the unborn sequence that comprises most of the Third Act, although his presence looms large. The focus here is on George’s inner journey and transformation.

Ender’s Game: When Ender is forced to kill fellow student Bonzo, he is pushed to his breaking point. The time has come for him to leave Battle School and command Dragon Army in a larger arena. But after Bonzo’s death, the commanders realize they’re on the brink of losing the boy they’ve been grooming to save the world. Ender is permitted to return to Earth to visit his beloved sister Valentine. While there, he must make the decision that will change not only the fate of the world but also his own life. When he decides to return to space and take his promotion, events are sent into an irrevocable spiral to the Climax.

Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World: When a convalescent Dr. Stephen Maturin is set loose upon his long-anticipated and long-delayed Galapagos expedition, he accidentally discovers the enemy ship at anchor on the far side of the island. This launches the Third Act in a flurry of preparations. Captain Jack Aubrey formulates his plan to lure the enemy privateer near enough to make the kill. His crew hurries to prepare for the climactic battle that has been foreshadowed since the opening scene.

Top Things to Remember About the Third Act

1. The Third Act begins around the 75% mark.
2. The Third Plot Point ends the Second Act and begins the Third. This plot point may be a reversal of the gains made in the Second Half of the Second Act (as in Pride & Prejudice), an unexpected event (as in It’s a Wonderful Life), a personal decision (as in Ender’s Game), or a meeting between protagonist and antagonist (as in Master and Commander).
3. From its opening plot point onward, the Third Act picks up speed and doesn’t slow down.
4. Despite its comparatively fast pace, the Third Act must be thoughtful enough in its first moments to allow all the extra pieces to be either tied off and set out of the way (such as Ender’s relationship with his sister) or assembled for the showdown (such as the Surprise’s preparations for battle).
5. The Third Act pays off all foreshadowing. Everything set up in the first two acts comes full circle.
6. The Third Act completes the protagonist’s arc. Whether the character is following a Positive, Flat, or Negative Arc, the events of the Third Act offer the final possibilities for transformation.
7. The Third Act ends the conflict between protagonist and antagonist. The protagonist’s relationship to the plot goal will be definitively decided, whether victoriously or not.

If you can deliver a solid Third Act, you will have accomplished what myriads of novelists struggle to do (even published ones). This is where writers become authors!

Stay tuned: Next week, we will talk about the Third Plot Point.

Wordplayers, tell me your opinions! Does your Third Act tie off all the loose ends? Tell me in the comments!

Related Posts:

Part 1: 5 Reasons Story Structure Is Important

Part 2: The Hook

Part 3: The First Act

Part 4: The Inciting Event

Part 5: The First Plot Point

Part 6: The First Half of the Second Act

Part 7: The Midpoint

Part 8: The Second Half of the Second Act

Click the “Play” button to Listen to Audio Version (or subscribe to the Helping Writers Become Authors podcast in Apple Podcast, Amazon Music, or Spotify).

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The post The Third Act (Secrets of Story Structure, Pt. 9 of 12) appeared first on Helping Writers Become Authors.

How can you be successful at connecting with readers and selling books at live, in-person events? What are some practical tips as well as mindset shifts that can help you make the most of the opportunities? Mark Leslie Lefebvre shares his experience.

In the intro, Beventi for author events, Reader survey results [Written Word Media]; “How do I market myself without feeling gross about it?” [Author Stack]; 12 Concepts for Authors to Make $8333/Month; Results of AI training survey [Draft2Digital]; LionsGate partnering with RunWayML; Networking workshop [LSF]; Blood Vintage.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Mark Leslie LeFebvre is the author of horror and paranormal fiction, as well as nonfiction books for authors. He’s also an editor, professional speaker, and the Director of Business Development at Draft2Digital. His latest book is A Book in Hand: Strategies for Optimizing Print Book Sales via Signings and Other In Person Events.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• What does “going wide” really mean?
• Benefits of in-person signings and events
• Always connect. The power of creating personal relationships with readers
• The different types of in-person events
• Using props to attract the right readers to your booth
• How to grow your email list and audience from in-person events
• The logistics of in-person events — payment systems and inventory
• Managing your energy when planning for and attending events
• Staying relaxed about changing technology and using it to your advantage

You can find Mark at MarkLeslie.ca.

Transcript of Interview with Mark Leslie LeFebvre

Joanna: Mark Leslie LeFebvre is the author of horror and paranormal fiction, as well as nonfiction books for authors. He’s also an editor, professional speaker, and the Director of Business Development at Draft2Digital.

His latest book is A Book in Hand: Strategies for Optimizing Print Book Sales via Signings and Other In Person Events. So welcome back to the show, Mark.

Mark: Always great to chat with you, Joanna.

Joanna: Oh, yes. Obviously many listeners might know you from author events or listen to your podcast, Stark Reflections. So you were last on the show in September 2021.

Mark: Has it been that long?

Joanna: Yes, it has been, which is crazy. You’ve been on the show lots over the years. We co-wrote The Relaxed Author together, and we’re going to come back to that later. So it’s been almost three years since you’ve been on the show—

Give us a bit of an update on your writing and publishing journey, as you’ve had some big milestones lately.

Mark: So I’ve continued to write in my Canadian Werewolf series. Book seven, Only Monsters in the Building, that was released earlier this year, 2024. I’ve got book eight planned for mid-2025.

So that’s been fun because in 2021, I think, I had only had two or three books in that series. So I’ve continued to chug away at that. Only one book a year, just sort of standard speed.

I did release a co-authored book with D.F. Hart, Accounting for Authors, which is important because she’s an MBA. That was a great co-authoring experience because she’s really smart and knows everything about that. I took the role of the author who knows nothing about finances. That is kind of close to the truth, so it was an easy role to fill.

Then also, with D.F. Hart and Erin Wright and Susie O’Connell and Bradley Charbonneau—

We registered and founded a company, Wide for the Win.

It is like a long, slow build for this company. All of us are working collaboratively together, trying to leverage that movement into something that could help more authors in different ways. So that’s like this long, slow thing where the company’s not really earning money yet, it’s breaking even, but we have these plans.

I mean, for example, sales of my book Wide for the Win, a portion of the sales goes and funds into the company, which is kind of good.

So other things I’ve been up to is I’ve written two movie trivia books. This is drawn upon my love of 80s films and nostalgia. So I had The Canadian Mounted, which is a trivia guide to planes, trains and automobiles, because it’s a reference to a book that one of the characters is reading in it.

That took off beyond my wildest dreams. I thought 15-20 people in the world would buy it, and I wrote it completely as a passion project, and it just keeps shooting. It’s been out for a few years now, and every Thanksgiving season through Christmas, it sells like gangbusters. Then I did a trivia book of Die Hard called Yippee Ki-Yay, you know the rest. So that came out.

Then this December, I’m working on a book, which is Merry Christmas! which is a line cousin Eddie uses in Christmas Vacation. Again, that’s going to be like the 35th anniversary of the release of that movie. So that’s been a weird tangent.

Of course, I then attended Western Colorado University’s Masters of Creative Writing Program taught by our mutual friend Kevin J. Anderson. I got my specialisation in publishing. Why not get a piece of paper to go with the 35 years of experience?

Then three days after I got my degree, Liz and I flew from Colorado, where I was on campus, to New York City. We got married there on the 10th anniversary of our first date.

That, ironically, was inspired not only by the fact that that’s our city, we love New York City so much. We’ve been there about eight times in a six-year period. It was inspired by a co-authored book in my Canadian Werewolf series called Lover’s Moon, which is a romantic comedy tale.

There’s a scene that takes place in Central Park on the Bow Bridge, the bridge where people tend to propose. After we finished writing that, I turned to Liz, and I said, “You know, we could just elope and go to New York and get married in Central Park.” So we did that, which is fun.

Then, of course, I’ve got A Book in Hand coming out. So that’s the Reader’s Digest version. Could you imagine if I did the long version?

Joanna: Can we also say that you work at Draft2Digital. So you also have a day job!

Mark: Yes. Well, I mean, that’s only 20 hours a week.

Joanna: It’s a part time day job, but still. Just coming back on the Wide for the Win, because just for people who might not know, basically the idea is that you’re not exclusive to Amazon.

It’s interesting, when I say wide now, I actually mean Kickstarter and Shopify stores. Like it used to just mean Kobo Writing Life and Apple and Google and stuff like that.

Now publishing wide is much, much bigger than just the other e-retailers isn’t it?

Mark: Yes, and my version of wide has always been that. I’ve always thought, okay, the other retailers are just the beginning. Direct sales, Kickstarters, Patreon, and all the different things you can do, there are so many other platforms, so many other ways of selling.

I really want to help authors understand the ability to extend and expand to audiences outside of the regular places. That’s partly what A Book in Hand is trying to get into.

I’m focusing very specifically on physical products because I think a lot of indie authors don’t.

I think you and I both know the value of that physical artifact. Even though it’s harder and it takes more work, there can be a long-term benefit.

So yes, wide to the other retailers is a small version of wide. My wide means every possible avenue, as a creator and as a storyteller.

Joanna: Yes, I really like that. I actually think that the shift is happening. It’s great that you’ve set that company up with the others because I feel like maybe we’re in year one or two of that being the movement.

I mean the movement in the first 15 years, really since you and I met, before 2010, was very much focused on the Amazon model first. Even though there were other retailers, obviously, you were at Kobo back then when we met.

Now I feel like there’s a real shift, and people are opening up to that. So I think starting the company now, whatever you’re planning to do, really is the right time because people are realizing they need to do all this stuff.

Not just for the money, but also for the creative expression, and the experience, and the other possibilities of being out there.

Mark: For sure. Again, education and making sure people are getting good information was the key thing that we all cared about. Not just sharing the passion for doing all the things you can do, multiple streams of income and all those things, but also helping steer people in the right direction.

There’s a lot of misinformation out there, and we wanted to get a little bit better at formulizing trying to help authors.

Joanna: Great. Well, we’ll look forward to that. So let’s get into the book. So it is mainly about in-person signings and in-person events. I wanted to talk to you about this because I resist this completely.

I have, like you know, the only signed books I’ve done are my Kickstarters so far. I really love them, but I go up, I sign all the books, and they get sent out. I have never done a book signing.

I don’t do fairs or conventions or any of that. If I go speak somewhere, I don’t take books with me. So people have to bring their own copy and I’ll sign them, which, you know, I’ve done for people. Basically, I want you to start by convincing me and some of the listeners—

Why should we do these types of in-person signings and events? What are the benefits?

Mark: I’m going to first start off, Jo, with saying, I may not convince you to do the in-person events because you’re already leveraging the principles behind A Book in Hand by doing what you do.

You go to BookVault, you sign the Kickstarter, and you have the benefit of that relationship with the people without having to sit there at a bookstore.

Let’s go back to the concept in general. It’s derived from something that you’ve often said, as things move and progress in this industry, doubling down on you and your authentic self is key, and that’s at the basis of this.

Especially in a tech-heavy and high tech digital world, especially with AI-charged content that can surpass even those rapid release people—like that’s coming, we’ll probably talk about that in a bit—it’s the connections that people crave.

Connections are the most fundamental reason for storytelling and for writing and books.

There’s so many readers out there who want a connection with the writer.

Now you, with what you’ve done with your magnificent Kickstarters and signing the books, it’s like if I want a signed copy of Joanna’s book, this is the way I get it. You’ve done that in a way that’s very comfortable for you, and I love that. I think that’s amazing, and that is still part of that mandate.

Sometimes an in-person event, when somebody connects with you—and I’m sure you’ve experienced this numerous times, people are fans, and they’ve heard you.

For example, I was talking to someone at a conference in Calgary who’s a huge fan of yours, like I am, and they’re so jealous of the fact that I talk to you, get to hang out with you, and stuff like that. When they meet you, it’s a real experience, and not just because of what you’ve done for authors.

Liz, for example, she’s pretty much read most of your Morgan Sierra novels and loves them. So there’s this whole cool experience of “Jo’s really sweet and lovely and optimistic, and yet, look at all the stuff she writes.”

Joanna: You are the same, by the way. People should read your fiction!

Mark: Same thing, and people marvel at that. It’s like, really, you wrote that? I’m just like, yeah, that’s why it’s therapy. That’s why I’m okay as a person. I get it out in my writing.

It brings the reader something well beyond just the words on a page. It gives them an experience.

So you’re creating a unique and dynamic experience for the reader that they may cherish. Maybe it’s posing while you signed a book for them, maybe it’s something else in person.

So I’ll give you a couple examples. At one of the events I did a couple years ago at Frightmare In The Falls in Niagara Falls, Canada, I had somebody who had bought my hardcovers online, probably Amazon or some other store, and came in a werewolf costume to Frightmare In The Falls just to meet me and get my book signed.

Of course, I took a picture with him. I didn’t sell anything to him at that event, and it cost me a lot of money to be at that event. I did make my money back and a little bit more from that event.

Me being there with somebody who loved my books so much that they show up in a costume with my books just so I can sign, that experience hopefully gave this fan something really cool that he can share with other people.

Another thing I’ve done, there’s a brewery in Hamilton, Ontario, and one summer, eight of the ten of those weeks of the summer, I was there on Saturday. It cost me $25 to have a little booth and sell books, and I was the only book vendor there.

There was one gentleman I had handed a card, it had a coupon code for Kobo and the book cover of one of my thrillers, Evasion. So he was looking around, and he recognized my name because I’d edited a science fiction anthology by a small Canadian publisher years earlier. He’s like, “Oh, I think I have one of your books.”

I gave him a card, and I said, “Here, go inside. There’s free Wi Fi,” he’s going to go in and have a beer, “Check it out for free.” He comes back 45 minutes later, and he goes, “Do you have that book?” I said, “Yes, well, I just gave it to you. I just gave you the ebook.”

He said, “No, no, I want the physical book. Can you sign it for me? I’m really enjoying it. I want to own it.”

Since then, this one in-person experience of just chatting and not trying to oversell someone, it’s turned into a lifelong fan who buys every single one of my books and leaves reviews for them too.

That personal relationship with a reader is one of the more powerful things you can do.

Joanna: Yes, it is, and I am convinced of that.

Even you and I, we’ve met at events over the years, and because we meet in person, I mean we talk like this sometimes, but because we meet in person, we have more of a relationship, and we’ve done business together.

So I think that, even if it’s not just the readers.

Say you’re at a convention and no reader even buys a book, you’re still you can still connect with other creators who are there, and learn a lot from them, and maybe meet some of the people you’re fans of, and stuff like that. So why don’t you just—

What are the different types of in-person events and what kinds of authors do they suit?

Because there are so many different things, aren’t there?

Mark: So for example, I mean, the most common one authors often think of is a lonely author in the front of a bookstore in a mall, right, sitting at a table.

Joanna: Don’t do that!

Mark: Well, I mean, there are situations where it may be okay for you to do that. Some authors it’s good for, and others it’s not.

So that’s one, for example, that you’ve got specialty shops. So shops that are specialty, because I write horror, and I write scary stuff, and I have true ghost stories and things like that, specialty shops.

I was at a gem location this summer at a metaphysical fair festival, so people interested in metaphysical and paranormal and stuff like that. So that’s a good fit.

There are friends of mine who write epic fantasy, and they do a lot of medieval fairs, sometimes dressed up as knights and stuff like that.

I think going to book adjacent events could be even more important.

So for example, I talked about the brewery, I was the only book vendor there. So a couple things happen when you’re the only book vendor there. Not everyone reads, right? Like one in four Americans have read a book since high school, I’d say maybe even fewer than one in four.

The book nerds, the book fans, really recognize when there’s a book anywhere. When I see books and beer, I’m just excited about either one of them. So anytime it has anything to do with beer or books, I’m just all over it like a cheap suit.

So if you’re the only book vendor there, the book people are probably going to come to you, which can be beneficial. Now, depending on the genres you write, maybe the books are not for them, but that doesn’t mean that you still haven’t made an impression on them.

The challenge with in person events is you can’t do cost per click measures.

It’s so hard to do that. With online ads and stuff like that, you can kind of see how many people looked at it, how many people clicked, how many sales that translated into.

With some of these things, it’s this long-term touch event. So for example, one of the events I was at, which was another brewery, I had somebody approach me who said, “Mark Leslie, I know your name,” and it goes back to a podcast I was on 10 years earlier that’s no longer on the air.

It’s like one of these things that I couldn’t measure the fact that doing this podcast 10 years earlier was going to result in a book sale from somebody who walks by and sees my book. Had I not been there in person, she wouldn’t have seen my book.

There’s so many different local fairs, craft fairs, markets, pop up fairs, and, like I said, book adjacent specialty shops. Even coffee shops, breweries, and places like that. You’re limited by your imagination, right?

Like when you want to go wide, think about going wide with physical books. Not necessarily just sitting and planting yourself in front of a bookstore and hope somebody takes pity on you and buys one of your books from you.

Joanna: I think you’re right. I mean, of course some people want to do signings in bookstores, but as you said, actually—

The book adjacent events can be much better, as long as you can find some overlap.

I was thinking, there’s a lot of Christmas fairs as this goes out, I mean, towards the end of the year, land you’ll be next to people who’ve made knitted things or have some food things and wine and stuff. So that, to me, is a kind of book adjacent event to consider.

I think one of the things that puts me off is, like you did mention there, you can’t do cost per click. You can’t necessarily do an ROI.

If you spend a couple of $100 to get a store, and then you spend a couple of thousand to print enough books to make the day worthwhile, like if it gets sold. Then you have to get them there, and then maybe you have to drive there. There’s just all kinds of things that make me worry about it.

What are your tips for making the event successful, in terms of preparation and then also on the day?

Mark: So there’s a few things that can be helpful. I guess it depends on how many books you have.

I know this sounds weird and odd, but having one or two books is so much easier than having a lot of books because one of the challenges is determining what I’m going to take.

Now, I do a lot of events now. For example, this week, I did one this past Sunday, I have an event Thursday night, an outdoor event in Uptown Waterloo. Then I’m driving almost two hours to Ontario’s west coast, just south of Goderich, to do an open air book festival on Saturday.

I have stock of a lot of my books. I have a room dedicated in my basement, because we live in a big enough house, that is my shipping, receiving, and stock room. It’s where I have all my books laid out on shelves so I can track and I can see.

I use local printers. I use Amazon. I use Ingram. I use various ways to get these different books in stock.

It is expensive, having 10 of this, and 10 of that, and 10 of the other.

Then with my traditionally published books, I order from a local bookstore. They give me a discount, and I support a local business. It goes through their register, and also a year later, I’ll get like chump change royalties from the publisher on it. I make more margin on the ones I’m planning to resell anyway.

So tips for making the event successful I think are, obviously, you’re going to want to share that on social media. You’re going to want to put it out in your author newsletter. All the ways that you let your fans know.

Again, no, I don’t necessarily know where all my fans are because I don’t have those demographics from where they are, if they’re local or nearby. So no matter where I go, I try to let them know, “Hey, I’m going to be here. I’m going to be in South Dakota in September, South Dakota Book Festival.”

I’m going to send it out my newsletter because maybe there’s somebody in my newsletter who lives there. I’ve had people show up at events saying, “Hey, I got your newsletter last week that said you’re going to be here, so I made a point. It was an hour drive. I came to see you.” So that’s really important.

I think having merchandise props, some sort of setting part based on your brand of who you are as an author in the book or the books that you write, that can work. For example, I have Barnaby Bones. I have my skeleton.

Usually the skeleton either tells people stay away from the crazy bald man, or they come running over because that’s their jam. Like skeletons, yay. Love it.

I also have a sign that I hang there, it’s like a bat shaped sign that says, “Ghost stories told here.” It’s a great icebreaker. People will come over and say, “Well, you tell ghost stories. Well, tell me a ghost story.”

Then I say, “Well, first of all, because this is an important thing, I’m not just going to tell you any ghost story. I want to find out what kind of ghost stories you like because I have thousands.”

One of the more important things is not necessarily selling — it’s engaging.

So one of the other things is props. Even having access through our good friend Damon and Bookfunnel print cards. I have cards. I have ebooks.

Some people may say, “Well, I’d rather just get the ebooks.” Well, I have the whole Canadian Werewolf series here in ebook in the little oversized postcards that I print from Vistaprint with a cover on it. I can sign with a marker on the front, there’s room on the back to sign, but then there’s also that special code.

So I can do one of a combination of things. I could give something away if I feel like, “Hey, check this out.” If they really like it, then maybe they’ll come back and they’ll buy the series wherever they buy ebooks, or they’ll get them from the library.

So I can sell the ebooks that way. I can sell the audiobooks that way. I can even add them as somebody who buys the whole series. Like here, download the eBooks for free. So you can have these signed copies and then listen to the book.

So I think having physical merchandise is tricky, but very expensive, of course, and again, something that will draw the right fans to your table. If you write cat mysteries, you better have some cat stuff.

With the master’s program, we just released a book called Feisty Felines and Other Fantastical Familiars. I remember having the book at a fair earlier this summer, even just before the book officially launched, Kevin said it was okay for us to put those author copies out and start getting people excited.

I mean, I had people running over when they saw the black cat on the front because you can see it from far away. They came over because there was a cat on it, and they were all over it. They were all over it and loved it. So that was a really exciting thing. So again, you never know what’s going to catch someone’s eye.

Joanna: It’s a good point.

You’ve mentioned a couple of times not to be too salesy. Don’t do the hard sell.

I remember, it was one ThrillerFest in New York. ThrillerFest has a big book sales room, and people do signings in there. I mean, it is an event for authors, so everyone there is an author.

If you go, they can stock your books in the main thing. I remember going in there, and of course, everyone wants to buy books, but I remember going in there and this guy just came up to me, holding his book, and said, “Do you want to buy this?”

Obviously, my first reaction is, no, I don’t want to buy this, but because I’m English, I’m very polite. I was like, “Oh, that looks very interesting.”

Then, of course, you’ve reached out a hand, Then you’re holding the book, and he’s done what people on the street do, you know, with little things where they give it to you, and once they’ve given it to you, and then you’re like, oh, no, now I have to buy it. I still remember him. This is like a decade ago.

I still remember him being someone I did not want to buy his book. I don’t think I did buy it in the end, but I was annoyed that he was even taking the time in my head when I wanted to be looking for books I actually wanted. So that’s like an example of definitely do not do.

What are some of the other big mistakes you see newbies make with these in-person events?

Mark: Well, I want to double down on what you just said to make sure that your listeners pick up on this. The difference between making one sale—like he was very forceful, and put putting a book in your hand that you were not interested in.

That was an anxious, uncomfortable moment that still lives with you. He made the worst possible—well, one of the worst possible impressions, there could have been worse things—but he made a really bad impression. It’s still with you.

You’ll probably never buy anything from that author because of that bad experience. So I would rather not make a sale now, but have a potential long-term relationship or long-term interactions with somebody.

I think too many authors try so hard to get the sale now, because I paid for my table, and I want to make my money back, or my flight, or whatever it cost me to get here. They’re so fixated on that that they miss out on: is this the right person for the book? Is this the right reader? That should be their focus.

So we talked about overspending, with the merchandise, and by printing too much stock and stuff like that. I think —

Focusing on a legitimate and genuine connection with the right person is way more important.

That includes—and you mentioned this earlier, and it’s so important—talking to the other authors, talking to the other vendors, getting to know the staff wherever it is that you happen to be. You never know who might be or might know someone who’s going to be your ideal reader.

So it’s not always be closing, it’s always be connecting. So, for example, if I was in that gentleman’s shoes, and you walk by—and probably not you because you do like dark things—but I’m standing there, and somebody comes by, and says, “Oh, what do you have there?”

I’ll be like, “Well, then do you like horror?” Then they’re like, “No, I’m more of a romance reader.”

I’m like, “Oh, well, I don’t really have anything for you. Well, I sort of have one book, but not really your cup of tea. But you know what? My friend Bella, just down there, you’ve got to check out her Sullivans Series. It is absolutely amazing.”

“If you like thrillers with some action and adventure, Marie Force has a fantastic series, The Fatal Series. You’re going to love that.” So get to know who else is there and what they have.

If somebody comes up to you and asks for something and you don’t have what they want, don’t waste their time trying to sell them something and fit the square peg in the round hole.

Try to help them find what they’re looking for.

As a bookseller, I did this when I was managing a bookstore. People would come to my bookstore in the mall to ask non-book-related questions because they knew I would do everything I could to help them. They liked me and they trusted me, and people buy things from people they know, like, and trust.

So they would come to the mall and say, “Oh, I’m looking for a really great hardware store,” or something like that, “I figured you’d recommend something.” It has nothing to do with books, and I would help them.

Guess what? The next time they needed a book, guess who they were going to refer their friends to or come to.

Joanna: Or buy a gift. I mean, that’s the other thing, isn’t it? Like a lot of people are buying gifts at these things. It doesn’t have to be for themselves. Then oftentimes it’s like, “Oh, well, I like that guy. I’ll go back and buy a gift from him,” or whatever.

Mark: They had a good experience. So imagine that person came by and they said, “I’ve got this book. It’s this genre that you’re not interested in,” and you just had a nice, short conversation, and he wasn’t pushy and didn’t try to force it on you.

Then you remembered, oh, that was an interesting book, and then you’re talking to someone in a coffee shop later on when you’re in line, and they’re like, “Oh, I really like this.”

Then you’re like, “Oh, there’s a guy, he’s just around the corner by the red pillar. Look for him. I bet you his book would be good for you.” You never know.

Again, the biggest challenge, especially with indie authors who grew up trained digitally, on ebooks and cost per click and all that, you can’t measure that. That’s probably the most frustrating aspect.

Joanna: You said there about thinking about the other person, and you also have to think about the kind of event. Also, not giving people too much choice. So both you and I have a lot of books, and it’s expensive to print everything. Also, if I take every single one of my books, people are like, ‘oh, too much choice.’

There’s all those studies, aren’t there, that if you give people three different jams, for example, they’re more likely to buy one than if you have 20 different jams. So you have to really think about what event it is.

I was actually just thinking then, because I am considering doing a Christmas market here in Bath, and I was like, well, which books would I take? Then I remembered, my mum has a book called A Summerfield Christmas Wedding.

Mark: Perfect.

Joanna: I’m like, well, of course, I would take my mum’s book. Then I’d have maybe my thrillers and some non-fiction, just one of each or two of each. Then I have my mum’s Christmas book, and maybe that would be the one that sold a ton.

Mark: Well, that’s the primary display, but then somebody’s like, “Oh, I love Christmas stuff, but I have a friend who loves archeological thrillers,” or whatever, because you’ve got so many different things now.

That’s the other thing is, maybe just feature the first book in the series and then have the other ones kind of subtly off to the side, but not as visible until someone really gets into it. That’s the other trick.

Joanna: Or even just the first one in each series. Then in talking to people, you can say, “Well, look, I have an email list. I can send you the details of the other books.”

I was going to ask you about this. So I’m kind of trained on very much the anti-spam thing, so I have never added someone to my email list manually. When I hear from people like yourself who do live events—

Do you keep a manual email list and add people to it live?

So how do you deal with that?

Mark: I stopped doing that. I used to have a clipboard, and one of the problems with the clipboard is people write like they’re doctors, like a prescription. You can’t read what their name is anyway. I stopped with the manual board, and I go with a QR code that brings them right to my list.

I say, “Hey, you want this book for free? Scan here, and you get the download. You can get it on your phone with the free Bookfunnel app, and you can start reading it now if you want. Then you’re on my newsletter list, and I can let you know what’s going on.”

So I find that’s way better because it’s not forcing anyone to have to take a clipboard and write things down, and then you have to go in. Again, it’s manual labor to go and enter it in.

Joanna: Just a QR code on a sheet of paper?

Mark: Yes. I mean, most people have a smartphone on them, so they can quickly and instantly sign up for your newsletter right then and there and get the free book right away.

So one of the things I’ve done as well as, so in my Canadian Werewolf series, for example, I have a little postcard and I have a sign with a QR code on it where you can download the eBook or the audiobook, or both, through Bookfunnel on a Bookfunnel landing page.

The QR code takes you right to the Bookfunnel landing page, and again, it’s not you have to opt in for my newsletter because I don’t want that. I’m sorry, I pay for enough deadbeats on my newsletter who do SFA. I’m sorry. I’m pushing really hard right now on my newsletter, and I’m happy.

Joanna: You have to get rid of people.

Mark: Well, if you’re not going to click things, or respond, reply, or buy things from me, what the hell are you doing there? Get the hell out. You’re just dead weight, and you’re costing me a lot of money.

I don’t mean to be mean, but I would rather have somebody who’s engaged and wants to hear from me on the newsletter, because those are my people. The other people just got a free book once, and they’re just costing me money.

So again, I don’t force them. Like, even when they get the free download, it’s an option. I don’t have it clicked by default. They have to choose to be on my newsletter because I don’t want to put them on my newsletter unless they want to be on my newsletter. So I give them the option.

Joanna: That’s a good tip. The other thing I wonder about is the money side. So, of course, you mentioned at some events there is a bookseller there, and it will go through them.

Do you need to have a Square or some kind of mobile payment system?

Because a lot of people don’t even have cash anymore?

Mark: Great question. I used to have one of the small Square Readers that tapped and connected to my phone, and it was just problematic software-wise. I ended up investing last year in one of the full size Square Readers that has the receipt printer built into it. It cost me a few hundred dollars.

The other thing I like about it is I can print a receipt for someone right there on the spot if they want one. I can also email or text all the things that they want. All my inventory is in there.

I used to, when it was a cash sale, I had a little notebook where I would say I took $10 for this book and whatever. I remember one time at one of the really busy events I was at, my sister was there helping, a lovely person, of course, but she makes me look organized.

She forgot to mark down which books I sold for cash, and so when I go to balance the next day, it was like, well, I have all this money, but I don’t know what it was for.

So I even put my cash sales through the Square Reader, so I can, A, print a receipt for them. B, I used to print a second receipt for myself, throw it in the cash box, and I knew I sold that book for cash, or these books for cash.

Then in Square, I run a report the next day, and if it’s just a cash sale or credit or debit or whatever it is, I can see exactly what I sold, and all of it’s through the same system.

Joanna: That’s really good.

Mark: So I have something I can load to ScribeCount because I’m tracking my sales in many different ways, but it’s also a report that’s useful for me to understand.

Then I can go back, no, I don’t have my inventory properly managed where I go downstairs and look at the shelf and go, okay, I have 10 copies of this book, better order some soon because I’ve got so many shows coming up. Then you’ve got to do it in time, right?

I mean, I’m in Canada, so some of the printing is locally here with a printer. Some of it’s printed with Amazon Canada, now that they print. When it’s coming from Ingram in the States, crossing the border, you have to plan weeks in advance.

Joanna: I was thinking about this, so let’s say Author Nation, you and I are both going to be there. It’s in Las Vegas. I know they have, like in that hotel, they have a FedEx or business shipping site. I was even wondering about, I know it’s Amazon, but on Amazon they have those lockers and things like that.

Do you do shipping to the points where you’re flying to?

Mark: I have not yet done in-person sales outside of Canada because customs fees and getting nailed for selling across the border. So I have not yet. I have shipped books to the States to put in consignment with a vendor who’s there, like a bookseller.

I’ve dropped shipped to hotels and stuff like that. I have also shipped books or brought books to give away. I learned that from Becca Syme. It’s just too much of a hassle to fill out all the paperwork.

Joanna: I was wondering, I don’t know if I’m going to do this, but one could do presales of special editions, get the money now, and then ship them all to Las Vegas, and then give the people who are there those signed copies that they have pre-bought.

You’re not doing the sales on-site, you’re doing them beforehand.

Mark: Maybe the pre-bought allows you to buy an extra bag that you check in that’s filled with these books.

Joanna: No, I would just ship them to the location. I did notice that last time—

Mark: But you’re paying taxes to your government, right? So if you’re selling, you’re paying taxes through your online system. It’s already taken care of, so you don’t have to worry about any of that. Which I think, Jo, that’s genius. I love that.

Joanna: I mean, obviously in America, a lot of people are flying around to these things. Well, it’s just something I was thinking about, I was thinking, what if I did this, how would I do it in a way that’s easy enough?

I think this is the big thing, like even the Square Reader you said there, a couple of hundred dollars doesn’t worry me, it’s the how nervous I would be using it for the first time, or screwing it up when I had someone buying a Christmas present, or somebody who didn’t really know how to do it.

I do think the pandemic has probably changed it, though. Now people know how to use QR codes, and everyone pays with a tap now, don’t they?

Mark: They do, yes. The other thing too, I mean, I guess I have 20-plus years working in physical bookstores at Christmas. So I don’t get stressed out by that. I mean, if I ever have a line like that again, oh my god, like Brandon Sanderson style lines, that’d be nice.

Joanna: You’ll be happy. Also, people are nice. I mean, if your Reader isn’t working, whatever, you sort it out. Okay, well, that’s loads of my questions. Is there anything else you think we haven’t covered that people need to know? I mean, obviously they can get your book, A Book in Hand, but is there anything else?

Well, let me bring something up, actually. I saw a post from an author who did Comic Con, I think, or one of these bigger conventions, and they said, “That’s my last time. It’s too exhausting.” So there’s that energy management, as well as expensive, and it’s like that “I’m done.” So that would be a question.

How do you manage your energy at these live events?

How are you like, okay, I’ve done enough events? Or are you just your Energizer Bunny self, and just go forever?

Mark: It is so tough because I’m an omnivert, and I do get exhausted from being on, because I look at it as being on. So that is tough. That is really, really hard. You have to know yourself and understand yourself and what you need.

You can’t overextend yourself. That’s so important. Whether it’s trying to write books too fast, or whether it’s trying to do in-person events when that’s not your comfort level. So that’s really an important thing.

I can’t advise you to do anything other than listen to your body, and listen to your emotions, and listen to how you feel. It’s like, I eat this thing and it feels something afterwards, stop eating that thing, right? So that’s so important now.

Also, in a weird way, it exhausts me. Then I connect with somebody who’s come back because they bought something last time. They’re like, “Oh, you’re here again. Good because I wanted to get a signed copy of the next book in the series,” or they even just talk to me about it. Again, I’m creating an experience for that reader.

When you create an experience for that person, that’s marketing.

Dean Wesley Smith had shared one time that a print book is, on average, handled by seven people. So that print book that somebody bought from you and has signed from you, maybe they have a picture with you and that’s exciting, that’s something they’re going to share.

That’s the marketing. That’s the seven points, you know what I mean? Your book cover is a billboard. That’s really important.

Then the other thing that’s funny, and Liz and I had this conversation, I did Frightmare in the Falls in Niagara Falls a few years ago that was far enough away I had to stay in a hotel overnight.

The table cost me a lot of money, and I had my stepdaughter come in one day on the Saturday. I could handle the Friday night and the Sunday myself because they were slower, but the Saturday was going to be a busy day. So I paid her to come in and spend the day with me.

I think I brought in maybe $1,500 or $1,600 in sales, and by the time I calculated the cost of my inventory, plus the costs of all the other costs, and the meals and whatever, I think I made $100 off that conference. It was like a three-day weekend.

Here’s the thing. Liz goes, “Well, that was a huge waste.” I said, “Well, A, I’m ahead slightly.”

Yes, it was a lot of work for 100 bucks, but that was the event where the gentleman showed up in a werewolf costume. That was the event where new people who had never bought any of my books or even knew who I was, walked away with some of my books.

That event was a marketing campaign, no different than like an Amazon ad campaign, where your book is seen by somebody who may be interested in buying it.

So I say, okay, yes, I only walked away $100 richer from this event, but I have the experience, and I’ve given lots of people the experience of who Mark Leslie is, the name I write most of my stuff under.

That, again, is so frustrating because I can’t point to anything and go, “Look, Liz, my sales went up magically on Amazon a week after.”

Joanna: Well, I think the other thing here, actually, this is important, and I’ve done this many times, is you—

Take photos that you can use for social media that make things look bigger than they actually are.

I mean, even my signings at Bookvault. You know, Bookvault is a printing factory. It’s not like some sexy location, although, of course, book printing is very sexy.

Mark: It is very sexy.

Joanna: They’ve just got a room, well, it’s not even a special room, it’s like a corridor, and we set up a thing. The angle you take photos at can make things look much better.

Mark: They look amazing. I’m like, I can’t wait to have that one day. Meanwhile, you’re in a hallway, right?

Joanna: Yes, you’re in a hallway. I mean, you and I, do you remember when we did Frankfurt Book Fair together? When you had hair.

Mark: Yes, I had some hair.

Joanna: You had some hair back then. There’s some pictures of us at Frankfurt Book Fair.

Mark: The pictures are pretty amazing. It looks like a huge audience.

Joanna: Actually, we were in some random hall. There’s loads of halls. I mean, it’s a huge fair. There was hardly anyone there, but we did it, and the photos look really good. So, I mean, that’s a little secret, I guess.

Mark: All six people in the audience looked way bigger.

Joanna: So I guess that’s the other thing.

If you do an event, and you’re doing it for marketing, make sure you get pictures.

Just get your friend or some passerby to kind of look as if you’re signing or something, and then you can use that in social media, and that will help too.

Mark: Oh, for sure. I mean, and the same thing too, I’ve been at book events where nobody showed up. I was in Vancouver once at an independent bookstore for three hours signing copies of one of my books, Haunted Bookstores and Libraries: Tomes of Terror, and nobody showed up.

I didn’t sell a single book to anybody, even though my publisher advertised it, I advertised it, and put it all on social media. I spent three hours hanging out with the staff and having a blast chatting with them, instead of being a miserable guy who was all upset because nobody came to my party.

I had a blast with these booksellers, and I’m positive they hand-sold my book when I left. Again, the experience we had together was richer than me just selling a few books that day.

Joanna: Yes, always be connecting. That’s probably the quote of the day.

So we’re almost out of time, but I did want to come to a sort of bigger question. Now, you and I co-wrote The Relaxed Author back in 2021. The reason we did that was we had a conversation, and one of the listeners were like, oh, you should write that book. So we did.

Mark: Thank you, Jo’s listeners.

Joanna: At the time we wrote it was because authors were really stressed. At that point it was really the end of organic reach. The end of organic reach on Amazon. The end of organic reach on Facebook. It was a real shift to paid ads. There was a lot of angst about KU.

That was what was going on in that period. Now, I mean, that’s kind of as normal now. The changes have really sped up. We’ve got generative AI and the impacts of that, and there’s always stress in the author community. I wondered what your thoughts were on—

How can authors be more relaxed about change, in general?

Any thoughts on the impact of AI, given that you also work at Draft2Digital? Or your own personal thoughts?

Mark: It’s a tough one because it’s like exponential. The change is just growing at a faster rate than we can keep up with, and there’s more things to be anxious about.

So the first thing is to take a deep breath. I know it’s a weird question to ask, but I mean, it’s like, how does this affect my goals and my long-term plans? Or am I just fixated on looking at a dashboard all day instead of getting the important work done?

I think people need that more. I need that more. Jo, I pick up the book sometimes because I get anxious about stuff, and I pick it up and go, oh yeah, we said some pretty smart things here. We should listen to ourselves every once in a while.

So if I have to remind myself to listen to the things, I mean, I can imagine that there’s a lot of change.

So here’s a couple things we know. The technology is not going to get put back in Pandora’s box. It’s not going to go back into the bottle. It’s going to keep going, and it’s going to grow, whether we ride the wave or we get swallowed by the wave.

So there may be ways to look at a new technology, and I know this is hard, especially in this divisive world we live in, but look at something with a mind not of “I don’t like this because I’ve never tried this vegetable, but I think it tastes horrible, so I’m never going to try it.”

Try to look at it with an open mind.

Try to see if there’s a way within your goal set and within the things that are important to you and that you value, whether it’s your moralistic values, or the things that you just value in general.

Are there ways that you can leverage that for your author business in ways that can ease some of the pain points that you have?

Because we all have pain points, right? So you may never be somebody who’s going to use a technology a certain way, but you may want to use it in another way that can ease you.

So for example, I’ve been using, thanks to you, and I got the code off of your website, the ProWritingAid, I got a discount on that. So I clean up my manuscript with ProWritingAid before I send it to a human editor because it saves me money, and probably saves my editor a lot of anxiety and ulcers.

It cleans up some of the boring, redundant stuff I always do, the habits I have as a writer. So there are ways that technology can help in so many different ways if we’re willing to work with it.

I don’t just mean use it, I mean work with it. I mean understand. No different than understanding how to operate a vehicle, no different than how to understand operating a word processing software.

I had to go from typewriter to Paperback Writer, then Word Perfect, then Microsoft Word, over the years. I started off pen and paper and then I went to typewriter, because I’m one of those old guys. So I see it’s no different.

Sometimes we get so anxious about the extremes of what this could do, as opposed to looking at what it could do. You know, it could be bad, but it could also do these things for us. It’s a hard thing for us to do, so deep breath is usually where I often start.

I’m a guy with high blood pressure, and I get excited very easily, so I have to monitor this. So I’m speaking from personal experience, stop and take a deep breath.

Joanna: Yes, and also, I think this does come back to, as you mentioned it earlier, obviously the double down on being human and in-person events. To me, there are things that AI is useful for. Certainly for me, cover design.

You mentioned editing there. Marketing, oh my goodness. I mean —

I think most authors are going to be very happy the day we can just tell an AI agent, “Here’s my book. Please go market it.” That will be amazing, and that’s coming.

Mark: Authors hate marketing. It stresses them out.

Joanna: Exactly, and so there are things that we very, very much would like that to do.

But in-person events. I mean, for sure, the robots will come at some point, but there still is going to be a human sitting behind a table at a human event, selling books to other humans.

You can’t get much more human than selling books at physical events, I suppose.

Mark: I mean, it’s one of the things that allows you to stand out in the digital slush pile, in the digital masses, is the real human. Now, I can talk about the story I wrote because I know it inside out because I spent 10 years writing this book, or whatever it was.

You know this better than anyone else, and so you can connect with people in a more meaningful way that even the technology that exists can’t. It can’t respond and interact and engage the way you can. You are the best marketing tool for your book.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where can people find all your books and everything you do online?

Mark: Well, you can find me at MarkLeslie.ca. You can find links to me on all the social medias, etc. If you’re looking for A Book in Hand, the preorder links for this book will be at MarkLeslie.ca/abookinhand. Nice and easy.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Mark. That was great.

Takeaways:

• In-person signings and events provide opportunities for authors to create connections with readers and offer unique experiences.
• Authors should focus on genuine connections with the right readers rather than making immediate sales.
• Book adjacent events, specialty shops, and local fairs are great venues for in-person events.
• Authors should prepare by promoting the event on social media and in newsletters, having merchandise and props that align with their brand, and engaging with other authors and vendors.
• Avoid being too salesy and instead focus on connecting with readers and helping them find the right books.
• In-person events can lead to long-term relationships and word-of-mouth recommendations. When selling books at in-person events, consider bringing a variety of genres and titles, including your own books and books by other authors.
• Use QR codes to make it easy for readers to sign up for your email list and receive free books or other incentives.
• Accept mobile payments to accommodate readers who may not carry cash.
• Manage your inventory and sales using tools like Square to track transactions and print receipts.
• Focus on creating a positive experience for readers and building connections with them.
• Embrace technology and AI to streamline processes and alleviate pain points in your author business.
• Take a deep breath and approach change with an open mind, considering how it aligns with your goals and values.
• In-person events provide an opportunity to stand out in the digital world and connect with readers on a personal level.

The post Selling Books In Person At Live Events With Mark Lefebvre first appeared on The Creative Penn.