How can you write memoir with deep sensory detail? How does terroir in wine equate to the writer’s voice? How can you manage your online presence while still protecting yourself from the haters? Multi-award-winning wine writer Natalie MacLean shares her tips.

In the intro, initial thoughts on Author Nation 2024, photos from Death Valley @jfpennauthor, Folk horror on The Nightmare Engine Podcast, Walking the Camino de Santiago on the Action Packed Travel Podcast; Introversion and writing the shadow on The Quiet and Strong Podcast.

Today’s show is sponsored by FindawayVoices by Spotify, the platform for independent authors who want to unlock the world’s largest audiobook platforms. Take your audiobook everywhere to earn everywhere with Findaway Voices by Spotify. Go to findawayvoices.com/penn to publish your next audiobook project.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Natalie MacLean is a multi-award-winning wine writer, named World’s Best Drinks Writer at The World Food Media Awards, as well as a sommelier, TV wine expert, and host of The Unreserved Wine Talk Podcast. She’s also the bestselling author of multiple nonfiction books on wine, including Unquenchable, named as one of Amazon’s best books of the year. Her latest book is Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Challenges of writing memoir compared to journalistic writing
• Using memoir to tell your Truth
• Tips for sensory writing from a ‘super taster’
• What is terroir and how to use it in your writing
• Maintaining boundaries while still marketing your author brand
• Dealing with crisis management and managing your mental health
• How to reach and engage with book clubs
• Connecting multiple streams of income
• Utilising podcasting for book marketing in your author business

You can find Natalie at NatalieMaclean.com.

Transcript of Interview with Natalie Maclean

Joanna: Natalie MacLean is a multi-award-winning wine writer, named World’s Best Drinks Writer at The World Food Media Awards, as well as a sommelier, TV wine expert, and host of The Unreserved Wine Talk Podcast. She’s also the bestselling author of multiple nonfiction books on wine, including Unquenchable, named as one of Amazon’s best books of the year.

Her latest book is Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much. So welcome to the show, Natalie.

Natalie: It is so good to be back here with you. We’ve had an initial chat on my podcast [about biodynamic wine and Blood Vintage], but I am so looking forward to this, Jo.

Joanna: Oh, yes. So first up, just—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Natalie: Sure. So my career path was probably like a lot of folks. I didn’t plan to be a writer. I didn’t have the confidence to be a writer. I was brought up by a single mom, single parent mom. She was a school teacher, so she really pounded it into me, make sure you get an education that will get you a job.

So I wanted to study English, but no, no. So it was PR and an MBA, and right into the workforce in high tech marketing.

Along the way, I was working for a super computer company that was based in Mountain View, California. I’m Canadian, and I still live here, but the head office was down where the campus of Google now is.

So I started arranging all of my meetings there when I had to go on Fridays so I could stay over the weekend and drive up to Napa and Sonoma. While I didn’t have time to learn golf or pottery or anything else, I was dining out a lot with clients or whatever. So I really grew to love wine. So that sparked my interest in wine.

Then while I was off on maternity leave, I thought, well, I have to keep my brain active somehow. I had taken a sommelier course just for fun because that’s what type As do. It was a good thing I wasn’t taking golf lessons because, you know, long iron clubs and type A, that’s just not a good combination. So wine worked.

So while I was off on maternity leave, I pitched the editor of a local food magazine because I noticed they had all these gorgeous recipes, but no wine content. I knew just enough about wine to be a little dangerous.

She said, yes, okay, have you published before? I said yes, praying that she would not ask me to send samples because all I had was my high school newspaper. So she gave me a chance.

The first article or column was “How to Find Wine Food Pairings on the Internet.” That was the headline back then, it’s gotten much more specific since. That led to a regular column, which gave me the confidence just to cold call other editors.

Then I started landing columns in some of our national newspapers here in Canada and magazines. I didn’t know anybody. I was a nobody from nowhere who made a career out of nothing.

I loved it so much that by the time my maternity leave was over, which is generous here in Canada, was almost a year, I decided not to go back. I had found something that really sparked a passion.

Wine gave me the confidence to write. I had a hook.

Otherwise I would have never thought someone’s going to pay me to write. Also, I could be home with my son. So it just all worked, and that’s kind of how it came together.

Joanna: Just on that, should we just be clear that you were not swigging bottles of wine during your maternity!

Natalie: Yes. No need to call child services. Mommy doesn’t drink while she’s pregnant. I had finished the sommelier course while I was pregnant. In all seriousness, I never took a drop, and that remains the health guidance.

There are a lot of tips in my book about cutting back on drinking. I didn’t mean to write a self-help book, but it kind of turned into that for some people. Definitely, no, I was not swigging. I was not giving my little guy Pinot Noir early on.

Wine just touched all my senses. I often say you could do a liberal arts degree with wine as the hub because it ties to all facets of human endeavor. History, art, religion, commerce, science, war, politics. So it just fascinated me, beyond the buzz of it.

Joanna: Oh, and let’s add dating and sex to the list.

Natalie: Oh yes, absolutely. There’s a reason why it’s a better social lubricant than, say, orange juice.

Joanna: Absolutely. That’s fantastic. Then, again, just so people know, when was that? It wasn’t like last year.

How long have you now been doing this?

Natalie: So my son was born at the end of ’98, and so it’s been 25 years. It’s been a time.

Joanna: I think that’s really important because what you just described there, starting out and having nothing, and now you’re multi-award-winning. I mean, you are so super successful. I think some people forget the journey, and they just kind of see you now.

I mean, I’m not as lauded as you are at all, but people look at how many books I’ve written, for example, and they’re like, how did you do that? I’m like, well, it’s 16 years of doing this. So that’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s year after year, and—

You’ve just added to it year after year.

Natalie: Yes, and you just keep plugging away at it, and the adage is compare and despair. The mistake that I used to make is I’m comparing my sort of back end—I know what’s going on in my life—to somebody else’s front end, which looks amazing. Like if you ever look at Instagram, everybody’s life’s perfect.

You don’t see what goes on behind the scenes or how long it took them to get there. You also don’t see that for every win, whether it’s a book published or an award or whatever, there’s like 76 losses or no’s from editors or whatever. It’s just going up to bat over and over and over and keeping going.

Joanna: I think what’s interesting about your writing is, obviously, you still write about wine and food pairings on your website, but also for loads of other places. You do reviews, you do articles on wine, but Wine Witch on Fire and some of your other books are much more personal.

What are the challenges of writing memoir compared to your more journalistic writing?

Natalie: So I’ve always written from a first person perspective. I like to be conversational. Memoir is a whole, as you know, Jo, is a whole other animal from nonfiction, and even from fiction.

Memoir does share so many techniques of fiction. I had to learn a new genre of writing, really. That’s how it felt. I had to learn about plot, and setting, and character, and conflict, and themes, and all the rest of it, and dual timelines.

All of this I did not have to do when writing a straightforward nonfiction book about wine or travel. It was so complex, and yet that’s what also made it exhilarating.

Memoir is a true account, or at least the way you understand the truth of what happened in your life, but you have all these other techniques. It’s a mountain to climb, but it’s definitely doable, but again, you have to keep at it.

I took all kinds of online courses. I started listening to your podcast, which has been immensely helpful. So that’s one set of challenges.

Then with memoir, if you’re writing about anything juicy, it’s probably something bad that happened to you because no one wants to write about “here’s my perfect life, and it all turned out nicely.”

So, of course, I write about my no good, terrible, very bad vintage, personally and professionally, in Wine Witch. To do that —

You really have to dig into your own dirt, and be honest, be vulnerable, but also, in a sense, you have to relive what you went through.

They’ve done MRI scans on the brains of people who’ve been through a traumatic car crash, survived, but then they read them the script of what happened during that car crash. The same areas of the brain are lighting up. So you’re not remembering it, you’re reliving it.

So that is another challenge of memoir. You’re going to have to go back into those scenes of your own life and really relive them if you want to tell it in full detail.

Joanna: You mentioned there how you understand the truth. I get quite obsessed around the word truth, as in truth with a capital T versus the small t. There are some things that obviously happened or didn’t happen, but how we write about it in memoir is how we see it, and other people can see it in quite a different way.

So the example being, you and I have both had relationship breakups. I’m sure everyone has, but divorce, particularly. Divorce, I always think of it as a good example. My parents are divorced. My husband’s parents were divorced.

Divorce from two different perspectives, it’s such a different thing. If both partners wrote a memoir, it would be completely different from their perspective. So what are your recommendations to people listening, when—

You’re trying to tell the ‘truth,’ but also to realize it’s not the only truth.

Natalie: So you can always put that caveat up front, the author’s note that says, “This is how I understand what happened. It’s my story, my story alone. It’s not someone else’s story.” Even though other people may come into your story in order for you to tell your story, you have to stick to your story.

So if there are parts about somebody else’s life that really don’t play a role in you telling your story, leave it out. Let them tell their story if they want to in their own memoir. Stick to your own story.

The other thing that I had to do was, you know, competitiveness and perfectionism are kind of the two snakes in my life. As I say, one is a cobra that will bite you. The other is a boa constrictor that will squeeze the life out of you. So I’m dealing with that all the time, trying to, during this memoir, get past that.

So showing my flaws, all my flaws. I think it’s only in being very honest with yourself, and on the page, that anyone’s going to relate to you.

For me, a memoir is not exactly what you did and what happened to you, because your story is going to be so different from anybody else’s, but what you did with it, how you recovered from it, and so on. It’s what people can take away from that story.

So just to wrap this up, I always tried to be harder on myself than anyone else, questioning myself, my own motives and so on. As opposed to a memoir never works if it’s a revenge book or if you’re tilting the story some way. Readers are too smart, and it serves no one, including the author.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. It can be like legally difficult, and it’s not your therapy. You have to be past therapy.

I wanted to come back to something else. So you’re a sommelier and you’re a super taster, which I discovered when I read your memoir. This fascinates me because I’m very visual in my writing. In my mind’s eye, I see the thing play out, and then I write what I see. So I’ll often use the language I see.

Other people obviously hear. Taste is literally something I always forgot in books, and smell I forgot in books. Then with COVID, I lost a lot of what I even had left, and it never really came back.

Yo’re a super taster. What are your tips on sensory writing?

I mean, you write about wine over and over and over again. You must have such a range of sensory details because otherwise it would get quite repetitive. So what are your tips for doing this? What is the world like when you are a super taster?

Natalie: Wow, I must say, I read Blood Vintage, as you know, Jo, and I think your sensory detail was amazing. Not just the visual, but the smell and the taste. I thought you did a great job.

Joanna: Thank you.

Natalie: So you’ve mastered that. So I’ll answer the last question first. As a super taster, it just means you’re very hyperaware of your sensory environment. I got tested in California by a master of wine. He actually measured my taste buds.

25% of the population are super tasters, and most of them tend to be women. We don’t know if that’s evolution because we were the ones cooking or tasting the berries before giving them to the children. Or we may just we’re more practiced in it today, sensing and sniffing and perfume and all the rest of it.

It was Dr. Linda Bartoshuk at Yale University of Medicine who discovered the phenomenon. She said super tasters live in a hyper sensory world. It’s like having 500 fingers rather than 10, or a hyper-neon world. It’s a lot of fun, Jo.

Joanna: Sounds overwhelming.

Natalie: It is. It is. Why do I drink? Why did I used to overdrink? It’s noticing everything. Without my telling him, the master of wine who tested me, he said, “I’ll bet you, you remove your tags from your clothing. You don’t like zippers. You have thermostat wars with your family.”

I’m thinking, that’s just creepy that he’s so right on. So it’s just a matter of noticing, over-noticing.

So that leads me to the answer to your question, how do you get better at sensory detail?

Start noticing everything. Slow down and pay attention.

You do not have to be a super taster, you can be a super noticer, though.

I teach online food and wine pairing classes, and one of the first things we talk about is pay attention to everything in your life. So when you cut open a vegetable or a fruit, that’s when it’s most pungent. Smell it, taste it. Put that into your mind, give it a name, say it out loud, you’ll remember it better doing it that way.

We live in a very visual culture, but we’ve forgotten our sense of smell. It’s kind of downgraded. There was a study of graduate students, and they said, which sense would you give up for your smartphone? It was smell. We know that loss of smell can lead to depression and all sorts of things.

So notice everything in your life. I even tell them, sniff the leather furniture in your living room, just don’t let anyone catch you doing it. So notice everything and then start naming it, and you will develop a vocabulary that you can call on in your writing or when you’re tasting wine or whatever.

Notice differences. The other thing we do is we don’t taste one wine alone. We’ll put them side by side or have a flight of wines, and notice the differences. Hey, that one smells different. Why? Again, it’s just about paying attention.

It’s like when a movie critic goes to a movie, they don’t just sit back. They’ve got their notes. They’re making notes on plot and narrative. Just pay attention, and you’ll open up your world, your vocabulary, and I think your writing.

Joanna: I think it’s being more specific in our writing.

So for example—and a lot of writers get this wrong—they might say it smelled of apples, let’s say. Whereas if you were tasting a wine, I presume you would say, like a Granny Smith apple, or Golden Delicious, or whatever you have in Canada.

Natalie: Exactly. “After a spring rain, and the orchard manager had an argument with his daughter.” No, I wouldn’t go on that way, but you’re right. Specificity, isn’t that what writing’s about? Like getting more and more specific so people can paint that picture in their mind of where you are and what you’re talking about.

Joanna: Absolutely. So another thing that I love from the book is terroir, which we talked about a lot when I came on your show, and in Blood Vintage it’s very important. I feel like it’s a word that’s thrown around a lot, but that perhaps some people don’t know what it means. So why is that important for wine?

Also in your book, I love that you compared that to the author’s voice.

Why make the comparison to author’s voice? Tell us about terroir.

Natalie: Yes, thank you. There’s a wine label at the beginning of the book that kind of sets up for the contents of the book, The Memoir Domaine MacLean, and then I talk about terroir.

For me, terroir in the wine world means it’s a magical combination of like soil, geography, climate, weather, the decisions the winemaker makes, all of these different influences that come together to create the final taste of the wine.

I think we do it as writers. The parallel would be our word choice, like our point of view, our humor, our dialogue. All those different techniques come together to form your voice.

We often hear in courses or rejection letters, you know, “I want to hear your voice. What is your writer’s voice?” I think it’s all of those things that are working together and that are uniquely you.

If you picked up a book and it didn’t have your name on it, or an essay, someone would know it’s you. Just like someone would know this wine is definitely a Pinot Noir from California. It isn’t from Burgundy. We could get even more specific than that, but that’s basically how I think about it.

Joanna: Yes, I think one of the issues with a lot of teaching of writing is that often we have to self-edit. Obviously, we believe in editing, and we believe in working with editors as well.

Often when you’re editing, I feel like there’s something in your brain that says, “Oh, that’s too me, like I should be more professional in my writing,” or, “I shouldn’t say that because it’s too colloquial.”

Often those are the things that actually emerge as your voice, that make you not like everyone else.

Natalie: Exactly. I like puns, even though they’re supposedly the lowest form of humor, lowest intellectual form of humor. So you learn to not overdo it so that it’s not one big groaner, but let a little through if that’s who you are.

In the wine world, I stopped capitalizing words like Pinot Noir and Cabernet, and it was like a shock, or using contractions. Wine writing could be very stiff and jargony, but I wanted to make it conversational. So it’s all those little, tiny touches along the way.

Again, it’s a sense of vulnerability, of being okay to show yourself to the world. As I say these days, everyone knows everything about everyone anyway. So why not show them the parts you want without harshly editing yourself. They’re going to find out some bits and bobs anyway, so why not welcome them in?

Joanna: Yes, and again, that’s a longer term thing. In fact, I was talking to an early stage writer the other day, and she said, “Oh, I just won’t put stuff about me online.” I was like, if you want a career this way, it’s actually impossible, a long-term career. You just can’t keep yourself away from everybody entirely.

I mean, you have to have your boundaries clearly, but you just can’t stay completely separate. So if you’re open from the beginning, then that’s all good.

Natalie: For better or worse, we are all brands, as authors, as business owners, if you self-publish, or even traditional.

People want to know the person behind the book.

I keep dragging this back to wine, just because it’s what I do, but when people present a bottle of wine, whether it’s at a dinner party or they’re asking for recommendation in a restaurant, we’re fascinated by if there’s a story with that bottle.

Every bottle has a story, every book has a story, but it’s the person behind the bottle. Did they struggle and live in a van for seven years, and then they finally got a break, and they got a high score from a famous critic, or whatever. We want to know who made this. Where did it come from?

We don’t want generic wines any more than we want completely AI written books.

It’s just there’s no human touch. We want to see who’s behind the books and the bottles.

Joanna: Which is why I think memoir is even more important than ever. When I think about the writers whose memoir I’ve read, I feel like I know them as a person far more.

Whereas, to be honest, I read fiction every day—well, every night I read fiction before I go to bed—and yes, there are some writers who I follow in other ways, but most of them, I just want to read the story. I just want the book.

With a lot of nonfiction, it’s I just want the information. So I think there is a difference. Memoir is the most personal of genres, really, which is why it’s so challenging, but—

Memoir is also the most important for standing out.

Natalie: Absolutely, yes. You’ve got to be all in. So it’s the most challenging, the most scary, and the most rewarding, I think, can be, for the reader and the writer, but you have to be all in. You can’t just hedge it a little bit, and I’ll tell this little bit, but I want to edit out that.

Joanna: Yes, that’s true. Now, of course, so talking about putting ourselves out there, one of the things that authors are most scared of is being attacked online, being canceled. The negative side of being out there, of putting your head up above the parapet and getting shot at.

This happened to you in this terrible way. The book goes into it in more detail. So just briefly explain what happened. Also, more importantly—

How did you deal with it in those months of crisis management, practically and also with your mental health?

Natalie: I didn’t deal with it that well at first. So what happened, just to summarize without going down a rabbit hole, is that this happened 10 years ago, but I do think the issues are even more relevant today.

This was in the heyday of aggregators, Huffington Post, Rotten Tomatoes, etc. I was looking at different sites, and there were a few wine sites quoting my wine reviews. They had invited me to be part of their website, but I declined because I had my own website.

So I noticed, okay, they’re quoting my wine reviews. Why are they doing that? Then I realized they were quoting my reviews from our provincial liquor store, which is government owned. So I thought, well, that must be okay. Wrong.

So I started quoting all the reviews from the liquor board because I thought, oh, that will give my readers more context. So I’ll have my review, and then I will have it clearly separated that this is a different review from another writer, just like rotten tomatoes will gather movie critic reviews.

That lit a bonfire, and allegations of copyright infringement or misattribution, all the rest of it. So I did get legal help. I sorted it all out. In the end, I was within the bounds of what we call fair dealing in Canada. It’s fair use in the United States, in terms of what you can quote and how much you can quote.

In terms of dealing with it at the time, it just kind of hit me like a Mack truck out of the blue. At that time it was just before Christmas, it’s a lovely Nightmare Before Christmas holiday feel bad story. No, it has a happy ending.

At the time, I thought strength meant dealing with it myself, independently, and not dragging friends and family into this mess that was happening online. I thought, I can handle it. I went for a week without telling anyone what was happening.

I was just watching these nasty streams of social media and all the rest of it happening online, in the wine world, admittedly. Still, in my world, it was a tsunami. In that time, it was about 11 days, I lost nine pounds, and subsequently I developed a heart murmur.

So people say sticks and stones will break my bones, you know, whatever, it’s just the internet turn it off. But if you live online, or make your earning online, as we do, if we have online businesses, you can no more turn it off than a surgeon can operate outside the hospital.

Day after day, I drank the venom, and that was a mistake.

So the first thing was leaning on friends and family and bringing them in. Admitting this awful thing has happened.

Yes, I’m involved and partially responsible for not communicating better and what happened. I thought it would just be an exercise in shame, but what it turned out to be was an exercise in strength. That my friends and family were there to help me, to support me.

My hot buttons, what triggered me online, weren’t their hot buttons. So they didn’t care if so and so was saying whatever, they were there for me. It was such a relief. It was just a psychic relief.

Then dealing with the crisis, you have to do the things you need to do. I got legal advice. Originally, I was enrolled in the combined business program law degree. I dropped law and just finished the MBA, but I sure got my law degree in the end by the end of it.

In terms of copyright, invasion of privacy, suing for defamation, all the rest of it. All those issues that writers worry about, I took a crash course. So I got really solid legal advice.

Then I took steps after that to address what the people were saying online, but at a certain point you also have to stop responding. You have to block and walk. Block them, then walk and ignore them. As tempting as it is, even though what they’re saying is “ugh,” stop reading it.

You’ve done what you can do, then you need to remove yourself. Or it’s just going to take all of your creative energy out of you, and it will have a physical impact in many cases.

Joanna: I mean, for people listening, unfortunately, this is something that happened to you. You did make a mistake, but as you said, it was not legally a mistake. The reaction happened, and all that happened to you, and now I think people are like, well, why would I ever do this?

Why didn’t you, at that point, give up? You’re a highly educated, intelligent woman. You could have got a job again doing something else.

Why didn’t you walk away from the whole thing?

Natalie: Well, first of all, I’m very stubborn. Second of all, I’m a collapsed Catholic. So I believe in suffering makes you stronger. Beyond that, I did ask friends and family. I had some conversations saying, should I just go back to high tech marketing? But I left high tech marketing because there was so much sexism.

Then I land here, it’s like, oh dear, I just left Brave New World, this high tech world, move fast, break things, and stumbled into Downton Abbey. There’s a different brand, a different blend of sexism here.

One friend asked me, well, you know, you love what you do, you’ve worked at it now for—at that time—13, 14 years. Are you sure you want to walk away from that and go back to a corporate job?

I thought, God, no, that’s not me. I’m too feral for an office. I just love what I do, so why wouldn’t I continue?

It was very scary because at the time when you’re in the middle of a maelstrom, you don’t know what’s going to happen. You can’t see the future. You don’t know if you’re going to get sued or something’s going to happen. You have to take a breath, come back, lean on friends and family advice.

I was in counseling at the time. I remain in counseling. I’m a big proponent of therapy. You have to get back to, why did I do this in the first place? Why did I start writing about wine?

I love writing, and I love the sensory engagement that wine brings me. So has that changed? No. So why should I leave even though it feels like it might be safer at the time, but it’s not.

Joanna: I mean, it’s not at all what you went through, but several times over the last few years, I’ve attracted the hate for my stance on AI. I have at several times said to Jonathan, my husband, I think I’m just quitting the whole thing. I mean, screw this.

Then, as you say, the part of the community that are like, “No, this is valuable, and we want this,” it becomes part of why you stay. Also, as you said, I love what I do as well. I love writing books, but I also like technology and learning things. So why should you give up?

Also, people forget, right? So this is the more relevant question for people listening. How are things for you now?

How do you protect yourself and potentially try and stop these things from happening?

Natalie: Well, I’m so glad you do what you do, Jo. I mean, I just love following you all about AI. Unfortunately, those of us who are on this planet today evolved from probably the most paranoid ancestors who were always searching the environment for what’s wrong, what’s wrong, what’s wrong.

So that’s our negative bent because that’s what helped us stay alive and procreate. So we are the progeny of the most worried people on the planet.

So we’re going to notice the naysayers and the negativity, but you have to kind of, again, step back after you block and walk, and realize there’s just so much more positivity. There’s so many more supporters.

So in terms of now, I’ve had the benefit of this has been a decade since this happened.

As the memoirist Glennon Doyle said, “Write from a scar, not an open wound.”

My family at the time said, “Well, okay, you’ve done the healing. Why would you bother to write about this? Aren’t you just opening the scar?”

Well, I always loved Sean Thomas Dougherty, an Irish poet who said, “Why bother to write about it? Because there is someone, somewhere, right now who has a wound in the exact shape of your words,” which I love. So that’s why I shared the story, but that’s why I’m also able to share the story.

I’ve had the telescoping of time, the lens, to pull back and to make the reflections on what happened 10 years ago from a place of being healed, so it feels safe. It’s those reflections that are useful to readers. So no one wants a misery dump for a memoir.

They want to know not just what you did, but what you did with it, so that they can apply that to their lives if they’re in a professional crisis or a personal meltdown with a relationship. So that’s why I’m able to do it now.

Then in terms of safeguarding my health, well, I work out with a fabulous trainer. You recommended him to me, I love him.

Joanna: Yes, even though I’m in the UK and you’re in Canada, we have the same personal trainer.

Natalie: We do. I do it remotely. Obviously, I’m not flying over to Bath once a week. I learned to say Bath correctly, too, on the last podcast. So physical health, exercise, sleep, diet, but also mental health.

I continue in therapy. I love it. We’re never finished with who we are.

Also, just the safeguards I put for myself online. A lot of blocking, a lot of deleting comments, whatever, because that’s your daily mental stream that’s in there. So you have to protect it.

Joanna: Well, another tip for people. For a while, I outsourced my inbox because I just couldn’t do it. I get a lot of email, and at the time, I was getting a lot of email that I didn’t want to see, and it was hurting my brain.

For about a year, I did outsource my inbox, and then that person triaged and then sent me the emails that were nice or that I could respond to. So that actually helped. I think perhaps that’s a crisis management tip. I don’t use that anymore. After a while, that kind of died down, and so I was able to take it back.

I mean, you’re on TV, and you’re visible, and you’re on social media. I mean—

You’ve set your boundaries, so you only share certain things. Give some advice around that.

Natalie: Sure, so when I go on TV, it’s all about wine and fast food, or wine and Turkey for holiday dinners. It’s pretty happy topics, other than when I was talking about my book, which does, again, have a lot of humor. I’m painting it as this really dark story.

In terms of boundaries, I am public, I am out there. The memoir is very personal, but it’s what I’ve chosen, where my boundaries are. In the memoir, I did change the names of my family because I wanted to protect their privacy.

Sure, someone who’s really diligent can Google and try to figure out who everybody is. So I have set up those boundaries.

Just a side note that writers might like to hear on this bit about changing names—at first, I didn’t want to use the real names for all of the trolls online. So I changed all their names because I thought, don’t give trolls oxygen in your book.

Then once one of the lawyers read the book, he said, “Well, you know that if you quote what they’re saying from statements online and you use a pseudonym, you’re violating the copyright.”

Then by the end of writing the book, I came to the full, deeply peaceful conclusion that they deserved full credit for what they did and said, so I used their real names.

Joanna: I love that. That’s great.

Natalie: So that’s basically what I do, is try to have some boundaries. I don’t expose where I live or real names of my family. There are just some things that just are good safety protocols.

Joanna: So another thing I wanted to ask you about was you sent me this extraordinary book club guide. It’s got wine pairings for the book, and it’s 54 pages. When you sent it to me, I thought, oh, I’ll just open this, I’m sure it’s just a list of questions.

That is what I do for book clubs, which is, “Oh, here’s 20 questions that you might like to explore.” You do that, but you’ve basically written a whole book for a book club, and this fascinates me.

What are your tips for engaging with book clubs, and how do you reach them?

Because you clearly didn’t make this for no reason.

Natalie: The evolution of that was at the end of each chapter in the memoir I was recommending wines that kind of tied into the themes. For two reasons, my editor and I decided to eliminate that and put it into this book club guide.

One was, are you down and depressed and getting divorced? Here’s a wine for that. It’s like, okay, that’s not the message that I want to send. The other thing is, it became too long. So 54 pages, 13,000 words in this little book club guide, we removed that because the length of the book was too long.

So it comes in at 75,000, which is a typical soft paperback at 300 pages, I think it is, or just under. So that made it the right length. So that’s where this first developed. I didn’t sit down to write a 54-page book club guide.

It worked as a standalone, I think, because it does go chapter by chapter. It gives you a wine, it asks you chapter-specific questions, but I tried to go beyond that because, again, a memoir should be relevant to the reader. It should get them talking about their own lives and what they can draw from the book.

So it asks questions like, do you feel that wine is marketed to women differently from men? How do you feel about your own relationship with alcohol? Did it change during the pandemic?

So these are all questions that can spark discussion for book clubs, especially when members don’t read the books, which I’ve heard happens sometimes.

Also, it was interesting because it came back to me through people emailing and direct messaging that like a husband and wife or husband-husband, wife-wife, would read it together and use the book club guide as a way to talk about those issues between them.

Also daughters and mothers and so on, of drinking age, were using it in that way. So I thought that’s great. So the marketing to the book clubs has been mainly through the front and back pages, or front and back matter, as we call it.

So at the beginning of the book there is a QR code and a URL, that if you scan it, it will take you right to the book club guide. So that’s WineWitchOnFire.com/guide, and then it’s there again at the back of the book. So that’s the greatest marketing that I did for this book club guide.

Of course, you’re collecting email addresses. They can unsubscribe anytime they want, but that’s how I heard from a lot of people. Then I also put at the back of the book, you know, “Email me if you’ve spotted a typo or just want to ask a question.”

Like, there weren’t a lot of typos, but I know people love to email about typos, so I got a lot of emails that way. I’m just trying to seek out engagement with my readers because I want to take them on the journey with me.

I’m not as prolific as you are, Joo, but I do believe that one of the key success factors for marketing any book is an email list. I’m on social media, but the majority of my effort is through my email newsletter because you’ve got that one-to-one conversation, not on rented land, as we all say.

That’s been the major thing. Now, when I hear there’s a book club reading my book, I’ll offer to go on Zoom and join their meeting. I get a lot of book club members who read the book on their own and then recommend it for their book club, just because it has such a big discussion potential.

Then they discover there’s a book club guide that will help them not only organize the discussion, but also the wine tasting. Which is, again, the reason why a lot of clubs meet in first place.

Joanna: I think that’s genius, and I think we should all try a bit harder, I think. I certainly felt like, oh, I should try harder with that. I’ve tried to go to a book club, but I just couldn’t get involved with that. I’m not a very groupy type person. So I think because I haven’t been part of them, I haven’t paid enough attention. Reading your guide, I was like, okay, this is great.

Natalie: Thank you. Book clubs aren’t for everyone, but if anybody’s listening that does interact with a lot of book clubs, I would love to hear their suggestions. For my next book, I do want to write a book that’s specifically for book clubs, but I’m still trying to get my head around it, you know, with wines to taste.

Most book clubs are very proprietary as to which books they choose to read. So I’m trying to think, well, where would a book for book clubs that’s recommending wines and maybe some books on the side, where would that fit in?

Anyway, so that’s just an open invitation. If anyone wants to contact me at natalie@nataliemaclean.com, I’d love to hear your suggestions.

Joanna: I think that’s great. I wanted to just move into the business side for a minute. You mentioned that you’re not as prolific as me. I don’t think that’s true because you write freelance articles, you write for your website every day. In terms of number of words written, I think you outstrip me like a lot.

Natalie: I definitely out drink you

Joanna: You have a business around writing and wine, so it’s not just the book.

Talk us through your multiple streams of income

Because I think that’s really interesting.

Natalie: So the first one would be online wine and food pairing classes. So at NatalieMaclean.com you can find the wine and food pairing classes I offer. I have an in depth course. Food seems to be less intimidating for people to get to know than wine. You know, a chicken is a chicken. It doesn’t have a vintage chart, whatever.

So I bring people in that way, but also those who know a lot about wine, sommeliers and so on, also take the course. A lot of sommelier courses and so on, surprisingly, don’t have a heavy food and wine pairing element to it.

It’s just a lot of fun, and people get to know each other from around the world. So that’s stream number one.

Stream number two is subscriptions to my wine reviews. So every two weeks, there’s a new batch of 100 wines that come out in our liquor stores here. Our provincial liquor store is the second largest purchaser of wine in the world. So it’s a huge chain.

So a lot of the reviews are relevant to other regions, countries, and so on. I review wines from all over the planet. That’d be number two.

Number three is advertising on the website.

The books. What else? I get paid some honorariums for TV appearances, some not. Then I also do speaking.

Lately, it’s been a run of teachers organizations wanting me to speak to them. My mom was a teacher for 32 years. My grandmother was an English teacher. I taught Highland dancing. So I’m loving these groups.

It’s a variety of topics, from marketing wine to women, to make your dumpster fire your superpower, getting stronger through resilience after you’ve struggled through something, all those kind of topics.

Joanna: I mean, this is so important because nonfiction books, in particular, having an ecosystem around the book is where you can make more money. Then just finally, you’ve got your Unreserved Wine Talk Podcast. I’ve been on that talking about Blood Vintage, which was great. I know how much work podcasting is—

Why did you start your show, and how does podcasting fit into your book marketing and your business?

Natalie: I am a listener first. In fact, I don’t know if I’ve read a physical book for a long time. Even when you sent me the PDF, I put it up into Adobe and got it to read it to me. That’s how I consumed Blood Vintage. So I’m listening to podcasts all the time. I listen to audio books. I’m an audible learner, audio learner.

Even before the rise of podcasts, I had a short wave satellite radio, and I would listen to the BBC at night because that’s when the reception was best. These voices, these lovely British voices, would sweep in and out over the ocean, depending on how clear the night was. I loved listening to those.

Perhaps it goes back to when my mom used to read me stories at night, and just hearing her voice read The Wizard of Oz, and putting my hand on her forearm and feeling her strength, and the words were in the air, and then coming into me. I love all that. I love audio.

So I decided to start the podcast in—well, I actually made a few attempts in 2008, but the technology just confounded me. Then I started officially near the end of 2018 and got it up and running.

It was an excuse for me to be nosy and ask impertinent questions to people in the wine world, people connected to the wine world. It’s not just winemakers. I interview authors like you, but they tend to be wine authors. Sommeliers, cheese people, chefs, anybody, but it’s all about the storytelling.

So it’s very much similar to what I do with my books. It allows me entry into someone else’s life to ask the questions that I hope that my listeners/readers would want to ask but might be too afraid to or don’t have access to this person. That’s what I’m trying to do on Unreserved Wine Talk.

Joanna: People who think about starting a podcast, it’s like, does it help me sell books? Does it promote my brand? Does it make me money? Because it is a lot of work, or you might pay other people to do that for you.

Does the podcast fit business-wise, as well?

Natalie: I think it does. There’s a bit of irrationality, like I love to do it, so I’m going to do it. I do think that it is like having a 100-hour conversation with someone. They get to know you pretty well because I don’t just launch into the interview.

There’s always a preamble where I’m talking about something, perhaps more personally, like you do. I love those bits and pieces. What’s happening in your life makes me feel connected, makes me feel like I really do know you, Jo. I think people love that, like it’s very intimate.

So the business case though, I know that I have purchased online courses after consuming hundreds of episodes of somebody’s podcast. While I don’t have sophisticated enough tracking, I do believe in the power of podcasting. Not only is it intimate, but the stats are amazing.

People will listen to you for 30, 45 minutes, sometimes longer. Whereas it’s considered a win on Facebook or YouTube to get a 5-10 second watch of a video. I mean, it’s just so engaged. It’s an engaging medium.

Those long term, deeply committed listeners are often also long term committed readers.

Whether they’re reading a physical book or listening to it. So I do think there’s quite an overlap, and I hope that the tools get better for measuring it.

Joanna: Yes. I mean, I think there will never ever be tools for podcast listeners conversion because, as you say, someone who maybe has listened for months doesn’t buy anything, and then one day they will when they’re ready.

Or I have people come back now, people will be like, “Oh, you’re still here. You’re still podcasting. I listened to you like five years ago. Then I gave up on my book, and now I’m writing it again.” So they’ve come back. I think for both of us, I think podcasting is very valuable. Insane, Nat, we’re out of time.

Where can people find you, and your books, and your podcasts online?

Natalie: So you can find me at NatalieMaclean.com or WineWitchOnFire.com will take you to NatalieMaclean.com. Then I’m on all the social media channels with my name, but my primary hub is NatalieMaclean.com. You can get that book club, that reader guide, at WineWitchOnFire.com.

Joanna: Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time, Natalie. That was great.

Natalie: Cheers, Jo. I’m looking forward to that glass of wine or two in person next time you.

Takeaways

• Natalie MacLean’s journey into writing was unplanned and stemmed from her love for wine.
• Wine can be a gateway to understanding various aspects of life, including history and culture.
• Writing memoir requires a different set of skills compared to journalistic writing.
• The truth in memoir is subjective and can vary from person to person.
• Being vulnerable in writing allows readers to connect with the author.
• Sensory details enhance writing and can be developed through practice and observation.
• Terroir in wine reflects the unique characteristics of the writer’s voice.
• Authors should embrace their individuality in their writing style.
• Online criticism can be overwhelming, but seeking support is crucial.
• Memoir writing is both challenging and rewarding, requiring full commitment. You can’t just turn off online negativity; it requires active management.
• Leaning on friends and family can provide immense support during crises.
• Resilience is key; stubbornness can be a strength in tough times.
• Therapy and counseling are valuable tools for personal growth.
• Sharing your story can help others who are struggling.
• Engaging with book clubs can create community and discussion.
• Building multiple income streams is essential for writers.
• Podcasting allows for deep connections with audiences.
• Protecting your mental health is crucial in a public-facing career.
• Creating a reader guide can enhance engagement with your book.

The post Writing Memoir And Dealing With Haters With Natalie Maclean first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Is the antagonist always the bad guy? So often, we use the terms interchangeably. But this practice can lead to confusion about the true function of the antagonistic force within a story. Contrary to common parlance, the antagonist vs. villain dynamic isn’t a straightforward equation. Although the roles often overlap, a character can be an antagonist without being a villain—or be a villain without being an antagonist.

The same is true for protagonist vs. hero. Although many writers use the terms interchangeably, the truth is obvious: not all protagonists are heroic, just as not all antagonists are villainous. In fact, as I often point out, it is entirely possible for your protagonist to be the most morally objectionable person in your story, while your antagonist is the most morally upright. We see this in stories such as Catch Me if You Can, in which the protagonist is a con man and the antagonist is the FBI agent trying to stop him.

Catch Me if You Can (2002), DreamWorks Pictures.

This is an important distinction. For one thing, it allows writers to step out of the boxes they may sometimes feel they have to cram characters into. Allowing stories to explore morally gray areas not only deepens thematic opportunities but also brings in greater realism and a more accurate exploration of life.

More than that, making this distinction helps writers understand the true role of the functional antagonist (and protagonist) within a story. What is a “functional antagonist”? Here, we’re talking about not simply the character of antagonist, but stripping it back to understand its function within the equation that is story. Basic story theory doesn’t care about the specifics of your antagonist’s personality or motivations. Story theory only cares about the bottom line. Is this character fulfilling the role of antagonist in a way that creates story?

Definitions: Antagonist vs. Villain

What’s the difference between the oh-so-technical antagonist and the oh-so-colorful villain?

First, let’s examine what plot, at its most basic, actually is: a protagonist whose forward momentum is met by opposition. Usually, this forward momentum is the result of the protagonist’s goal (or at least intention), and the opposition is what creates the conflict. (I’ve written elsewhere about the true definition and function of conflict in story.)

The antagonist is the opposition.

In technical discussions, I often prefer the term “antagonistic force,” since this emphasizes that this opposition does not necessarily have to be characterized as a person. It might be the weather, the “system”, mental illness, or any number of other options. Any number of stories can be pointed out as lacking human antagonists, but this does not mean they don’t still feature antagonistic forces.

The antagonistic force is something that creates obstacles to the protagonist’s forward momentum. These obstacles can be as simple as a flat tire, freezing rain, or a bounced check. Most of the time, such obstacles will be unified by a common cause, even if this is something as thematically vague as “bad luck.” The most direct approach is to personify the cause of the obstacles as a specific character. This character is the antagonist.

Often, when we think of the type of character who might cause obstacles for another character, we think of someone with malicious intentions. After all, if a person is the cause of that flat tire, the motives at play aren’t likely to be morally positive. Therefore, it only makes that such a character must be… a villain.

Particularly, when we create stories in which the protagonist is blatantly heroic or at least morally positive, we often want to create an opposing character who can provide the contrast of immorality. Not only does this contrast make the protagonist more sympathetic and admirable, it also creates the opportunity to explore both sides of whatever moral issue is at stake. Both characters can exist on a moral spectrum, ranging from angelic hero and demonic villain to characters who share more in common than not, such as with Leonardo DiCaprio’s and Matt Damon’s cop and mobster characters in The Departed.

The Departed (2006), Warner Bros.

However, because “villain” has no specific correlation to the antagonistic force, it’s equally possible to see a villainous character who is not the antagonist—functioning either as the protagonist (e.g., Alex DeLarge in Clockwork Orange) or as a supporting character who is not opposing the protagonist’s forward momentum (e.g., Mr. Wickham in Pride & Prejudice).

Pride & Prejudice (2005), Focus Features.

What Is the Purpose of an Antagonist in a Story?

The antagonistic force exists to oppose the protagonist’s forward momentum toward a goal and to create conflict. From this recipe, we get plot. When these elements are all thematically harmonized, we get a tight, well-focused plot.

Creating Character Arcs (Amazon affiliate link)

Without the antagonistic force to create opposition, the protagonist would be able to immediately gain the plot goal—and the story would be over. The opportunity for the protagonist to transform as a result of overcoming this opposition would also be over, which means not only do we lose plot, we lose character arc as well.

In most stories, the antagonist’s motivation will pre-date the protagonist’s, creating the framework that forces the protagonist to learn more effective tactics for overcoming the existing obstacles. We see this obviously in stories in which the protagonist must take on a much larger system, such as Katniss Everdeen overthrowing the Hunger Games or John Dutton defending his ranch against developers.

Yellowstone (2018-), Paramount Network.

We also see it in stories in which the antagonistic force makes its first move before the protagonist is even aware of the antagonist as an opposing element, such as we see with Lt. Daniel Kaffee prosecuting a case for a crime that was committed prior to his knowledge of it, or Harry Potter joining a magical war that began before he was born.

A Few Good Men (1992), Columbia Pictures.

It also exists in conflicts that may seem, at first glance, to be initiated by the protagonist’s actions. For example, The Fugitive features a perfect example of an antagonist who is not a villain. Deputy Sam Gerard blatantly represents justice, law and order, and an adherence to duty. He has no knowledge of or interest in the protagonist—wrongly accused convict Dr. Richard Kimball—until Kimball escapes and comes under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Marshalls. At first glance, this might seem like Kimball initiated the conflict between himself and Gerard. However, when we zoom back, we can see that Gerard’s opposition always existed, via the U.S. Justice System, and was already engaged against Kimball, even before Gerard showed up as the personified antagonist.

The Fugitive (1993), Warner Bros.

The Fugitive pits Kimball and Gerard against each other in a tightly woven conflict, in which Gerard does everything in his power to create obstacles to Kimball’s goal of learning who murdered his wife so he can clear his name. In essence, Gerard and Kimball are morally aligned throughout this story, both working in the name of justice and using only tactics that are in accordance with that principle. All that differentiates Gerard as the antagonist is that he is the one creating opposition to the protagonist’s forward momentum toward a goal.

From this, we also see how necessary the role of a good antagonist is to a story. Without Gerard’s presence, this story would have lacked its intense throughline—something the story’s villain could not have provided since he was offscreen for 90% of the movie.

The Fugitive (1993), Warner Bros.

What Is the Purpose of a Villain in a Story?

The villain is a morally reprehensible person, motivated to act maliciously and with cruelty. The degree of villainy can vary wildly, spanning the gamut from Regina George’s high school bully in Mean Girls to Amon Goeth’s concentration camp commandant in Schindler’s List. The essential quality is simply: this is a person who crosses the line into social immorality.

Mean Girls (2004), Paramount Pictures.

Writing Your Story’s Theme (Amazon affiliate link)

Not every story will feature a villain. However, most will, if only because a villain character provides the readers a more multi-faceted exploration of the story’s themes. The primary villain in a story will often represent what Robert McKee calls the “negation of the negation”—or the worst possible stance that can be taken to the story’s theme.

Because this negation of the negation offers the most blatant contrast to the story’s thematic Truth (as ultimately embraced by a morally positive protagonist), it is common enough for the antagonist to represent this most negative version of the story’s Lie and to, therefore, be presented as a villain. In this instance, the antagonist not only opposes the protagonist in the plot but does so in a way that is morally problematic. This provides writers with the opportunity to up the stakes, since not only will a villainous antagonist use any variety of horrifying means to defeat the protagonist, but in facing the antagonist, the protagonist will also be facing a representative of a greater evil to society.

There’s little wonder we so easily conflate antagonists and villains. Villainous antagonists are truly effective in many types of stories. The Lord of the Rings could not have been so memorable without Sauron as its representative of true evil. Batman would probably never have become a classic in his own right without the contrast of the mind-bending sadism of the Joker. The Hunchback of Notre Dame required its chilling rendition of the hypocritical and corrupt judge Frollo.

Dark Knight Rises (2012), Warner Bros.

However, it is equally possible to utilize all the drama of a good villain in your story without making that character the main antagonist. For starters, you may decide to cast the villain as the protagonist (as you might in stories with Negative Change Arcs such as The Godfather and Wuthering Heights).

The Godfather (1972), Paramount Pictures.

You may also realize that, like in The Fugitive, the best rendition of the story is served by opposing your protagonist with a morally neutral or upright antagonist, while the villain(s) are represented by supporting characters. In this film, we can know the antagonist is Gerard by examining the structural throughline, which shows Kimball consistently facing the larger antagonistic force of the U.S. Justice System, which, by the beginning of the Second Act, is personified by Gerard at all of the major structural beats.

The primary villain is kept hidden for most of the story, until his identity is revealed [SPOILER] as Kimball’s friend and fellow doctor Charles Nichols, whose hitman Frederick Sykes murdered Kimball’s wife. For most of the story, even Kimball doesn’t suspect his friend, while Sykes provides the element of immorality.[/SPOILER] The presence of a villain in what is otherwise a straightforward conflict between two morally positive men deepens the story’s palette. It raises the stakes and increases suspense by adding that element of “chaotic evil” to the mix.

Which Is Right for Your Story—Antagonist vs. Villain?

Put simply, the antagonist represents the primary force that generates conflict and obstacles by opposing the protagonist’s goals, while the villain brings in the added element of objective immorality.

Every story with a forward-moving plot must include an antagonistic force. This isn’t optional. Even if your conflict is low-key, such as in cozy romances, the presence of opposition to your protagonist’s goals is what creates the story arc. In some stories this antagonistic force will be represented by a specific person who directly opposes the protagonist’s goals, sometimes not.

What is optional is whether or not your story features a villain—and whether or not this villain is the same person as your antagonist. Many stories are furthered by the inclusion of a comparatively villainous character, whether a mean neighbor or a serial killer. However, just as many stories do not require a villain, and, in some instances, might even be damaged by the inclusion of a sinister or overly dramatic element.

What’s important is for writers to understand the distinction of antagonist vs. villain and to examine their stories to determine what type of antagonist will create the most effective and entertaining plot. There are myriad ways storytellers can craft characters with depth, allowing antagonists to emerge as individuals driven by their own distinct motivations, moral quandaries, or even senses of duty. Departing from the stereotypical villain archetype allows for narratives in which the antagonist becomes a vehicle for exploring shades of gray, challenging preconceived notions, and ultimately contributing to the narrative’s richness through nuanced character development.

Wordplayers, tell me your opinions! What do you think is the most important distinction between antagonist vs. villain? Tell me in the comments!

Click the “Play” button to Listen to Audio Version (or subscribe to the Helping Writers Become Authors podcast in Apple Podcast, Amazon Music, or Spotify).

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The post Antagonist vs. Villain: What’s the Difference? appeared first on Helping Writers Become Authors.

What is dark tourism and why are many of us interested in places associated with death and tragedy? How can you write and self-publish a premium print guidebook while managing complicated design elements, image permissions, and more? With Leon Mcanally.

In the intro, level up with author assistants [Written Word Media]; and Blood Vintage signing pics.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Leon McAnally is the author of A Guide to Dark Attractions in the UK.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• The definition of dark tourism and what types of places it includes
• Public opinion around dark tourism sites
• Self-publishing to keep creative control of book design and content
• Researching historical sites and keeping an organized system
• How to obtain permissions for publishing images
• Working with a designer on a photo-heavy book
• Using book signings and social media as part of a book marketing strategy
• Managing expectations for research- and design-extensive projects

You can find Leon on his Facebook page: Dark Attractions in the UK.

Transcript of Interview with Leon McAnally

Joanna: Leon McAnally is the author of A Guide to Dark Attractions in the UK, which is brilliant. My quote is on the back, and I said, “A fascinating book for all the dark little souls out there.” So welcome to the show, Leon.

Leon: Thank you, Joanna, for having me.

Joanna: I’m excited to talk about this topic, and you and I are both dark little souls. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing.

Leon: Well, I studied travel and tourism in college. That’s where I first learned of this term called dark tourism, places associated with death, suffering and tragedy. I came away looking into these places and was really fascinated with the tourism aspect and the history aspect.

My university touched on this topic more, so I went and studied Travel and Tourism at the University of Northampton. I focused a lot around the motivations of dark tourism and the ethical issues around dark tourism.

After uni, I wasn’t sure what to do, but I wanted to travel to a lot of the places that I’d been writing about, like Auschwitz and the Catacombs of Paris. Then I got into writing because I came across yourself, actually. When I was researching dark tourism, I think you popped up on a website. I started reading your ARKANE thriller series and looked into yourself a bit more, and I was like, you’re just an inspiration.

Joanna: Thank you.

Leon: So it seemed from that, and then yourself. Then I was in Paris visiting the Catacombs at the time, and that evening I sat down and was like, what do I do with myself now? Then I thought to myself, there’s no book that covers like dark tourism across the whole of the UK. So, yes, it set me off on a journey, really.

Joanna: First of all, I’m really thrilled to inspire you. I’m glad I turned up on some website, that’s excellent.

Let’s just return to this idea of dark tourism.

You mentioned places associated with death, suffering and tragedy. You mentioned two places that are quite different, Auschwitz, which of course, is modern horror, really. Then the Paris Catacombs, which, if people don’t know, are full of plague dead, but it’s bones that are arranged in different ways. I find the Catacombs an awesome place. I’m sure you enjoyed it as well, right?

Leon: Yes, definitely. It was really eye opening.

Joanna: Exactly. I think those two places are disturbing in different ways. People are like, why are the pair of you interested in this stuff? So what do you think? You mentioned studying the motivations. Why do people visit these places?

Why do you and I find these ‘dark tourism’ places interesting?

Leon: I think there’s a number of factors at play. It depends on the place you’re visiting because dark tourism is an umbrella term for loads of places, and that’s what a lot of people don’t realize.

So it could be that you go to a memorial to remember people who have tragically died. It also could be a totally different place, and it makes you perceive life differently and how you wish to be known in life, as well as after life.

The Victorian cemeteries that are within my book, The Magnificent Seven cemeteries in London, I visited them. So one, they gave me a kind of inspiration and motivated me with my book.

Also, I look at the people who are buried there and how they are known after life. Like they were known back when they were alive, and they’re still being known, and their story and their life history is being retold.

Joanna: I mean, you’re still in your 20s, and I’m nearly 50, but—

We share this idea around Memento Mori, “remember you will die.”

By going to these places, it’s almost inspiring—you mentioned the word inspiration—inspiring you on how to live your life.

Leon: Yes, that’s one thing from each place I’ve visited, while they are different, it still drives that determination in getting my book out there and getting these places known.

There’s so many simple memorials to massive tragedies. There’s one in Barnsley, a memorial to a coal mine disaster, I believe it killed 361 people.

I look at that and think of the Aberfan in Wales, that is an awful disaster as well, and that’s a kind of well-known disaster. It tragically killed a number of children, and that’s really well known, but I feel like this other one in Barnsley should just be as well-known as that one.

Joanna: Yes, if people have seen The Crown, they show that Welsh tragedy on The Crown. I can’t remember which series.

I get what you mean, like some of these things are more famous than others. For example, Auschwitz, obviously that’s not in the UK, but many people will have heard of that and the deaths that went on there. There were so many other camps, that was not like the only camp, but that seems to be what people think of.

So as you say, it’s remembering the past, but also helping us live in the future. So I did also want to ask, what reactions have you had around this? So do your family think you’re weird? Do your friends think you’re weird?

What are the reactions of people who know you?

Leon: When you’re going to these places, a lot of people don’t consider it dark tourism. You may just go to a castle and learn about executions and walk away, and you don’t consider that it is dark tourism, but it falls under this umbrella term. So I’m like, you’ve participated in dark tourism without knowing it.

They do find some of the places that I visited a bit odd and peculiar. There’s a place called Littledean Jail. A gentleman has this old jail, and he’s filled it with a number of artifacts and newspaper clippings. It’s got artifacts to the likes of Fred and Rose West, the infamous serial killers, and the Kray twins. They found that a bit strange. Like, why would you want to go there and see that? That was a very unusual experience.

Joanna: Did you find that it was glorifying the serial killers or it was more just exposing them?

Leon: Yes. The rooms within the jail, when I walked into Fred and Rose West’s cell, it had belongings, like his work boots and a tie and a cabinet, and it had newspaper clippings, obviously, when it all happened. I felt like it was a shrine to them.

It was a bit strange. I was like, why would you want to have all of this on display and stuff. In some aspects, yes, you can look at it as it’s glorifying these kind of infamous criminals at the end of the day.

Joanna: It’s interesting that some places, so again, we mentioned the catacombs, I find catacombs where there are bones that are obviously long dead, more, I don’t know, more peaceful in some way. Yet, I don’t want to visit serial killer things.

So I think there are also gradations. So if people listening are like, everything’s the same thing, it’s not, is it?

You can visit one thing and be disturbed, and visit another and feel at peace. It’s really tapping into those feelings.

Leon: Yes, there’s definitely a lot of different emotions and feelings that come into these places. I definitely agree with you on that. If you go into the likes of Princess Diana’s grave, you’re going there to pay respects and remember her life.

You’re going to feel a number of different emotions to maybe what you’d feel if you were to visit the Tower of London. You may take a tour, and that’s going to be very energized by the tour guide. They’re totally on different spectrums, but that’s where it’s an umbrella term, dark tourism, for all of these different kind of places.

Joanna: Yes, so I was thinking too whether it taps into the same thing as the true crime podcast. True crime is the biggest podcast niche, and I feel like perhaps dark tourism is similar.

It comes from a similar place, a sort of fascination with death and the macabre. It’s having a separation from violence and death, like we’re still alive, we’re still fine, and sort of reflecting that way. What do you think? Do you think it relates to true crime?

Leon: Yes. In some aspects, yes, but it depends how recent the event is because there’s got to be some underlying historical factual elements, that dark tourism element. I think the dark tourism has been getting thrown around and been used for marketing of places on the wrong kind of aspects.

Places in America and stuff, places that are haunted are marketing themselves as dark tourism. I’m like, no, it’s not. It’s not that. There’s got to be the factual history element to be labeled under this term dark tourism.

Joanna: I like that because that annoys me as well. To me, I know what dark tourism is, but as you pointed out, a lot of people might get confused.

So let’s get into the book then because I have lots of dark tourism. I guess I call them death culture, so morbid anatomy and books around that kind of thing. Paul Koudounaris, I’m sure you’ve seen his books, lots of that kind of thing. I feel like you could have pitched this to traditional publishing, but you went indie.

Why did you decide to self-publish this book?

Leon: I think that’s where you come into play a little bit because you inspire me because you’re self-published and everything. So that kind of came into play.

When I actually started looking into it with my designers, they said you could take it to a publishing company, but you wouldn’t have so much control over elements of it.

That was a big thing because I was covering the umbrella term of a number of sites. I didn’t want a publisher to be like, “No, I don’t feel that site should be in there. I don’t feel that site should be in it. Oh, this should be in there.” It gave me the control of giving a vast amount of attractions and showing what falls under this term.

Also about when I was styling my book as well, some publishers may have a particular kind of format and style that they would steer towards. I didn’t want to be constrained on the designing aspects of my book, really. So it gave me a bit of freeness, should we say.

Joanna: Yes, I love that. I mean, that’s why a lot of people go indie because of the control aspect of what goes in the book and the design. We’re going to come back to the design, but let’s talk about the research. You did mention a bit earlier that you went traveling, but this particular book in the UK, it is really comprehensive.

How did you do your research?

Leon: It took me three years in all. It was traveling to places and also working with a lot of places. I wanted to make sure the factual history element was there within each kind of place. So it was traveling to places, and working places, and also cross referencing information, really.

Joanna: How did you keep all that organized? If you visited a site, did you write notes in a journal? Did you write them on your phone?

Leon: I used notebooks, and I did use my phone to take bullet points of information. So I would read the exhibits, and if there was bits of information that would stick out with me, then I’d bullet point them.

Then I also would then go back to the attraction and say, obviously, “I’m writing this book, and I’ve got this information, so I just want to double check things.” That then started to build a relationship with attractions.

I just found that when I was researching, there’s just so much. I didn’t really want to use the internet so much because there’s just so much unreliable information and incorrect information. So I made sure that was up to date and things.

Joanna: I think that’s great.

How many things are there in the book? How many sites?

Leon: Oh, my goodness. There’s just over 300 places.

Joanna: That’s just incredible. So you didn’t visit every single one of those?

Leon: No, I couldn’t visit every single one. I did visit quite a few of them. I did work with quite a few as well. Up to Scotland, all the way down to the south of England, I was working with places.

When I was writing about their history and things, and when I was saying I was writing about dark tourism, a lot of places would be like, “Oh, we’re not too sure.” Then showing them what I was writing about and giving them more of an in depth understanding of the dark tourism term, that helped in me gaining places. Also some places just still didn’t wish to fall under that term.

There was one place that I won’t say the name of, but I’d written about, and they was happy with the write, but they said they don’t wish to fall under this term dark tourism because they look at it more as a scientific kind of purposes. So I was like, okay, no, that’s fine. So obviously they didn’t make it into my book.

There was another aspect to it is I wanted to show how society reacts to dark sites. So if it was a more memorial, how had societies reacted in the process of the disaster and after the process in remembering people?

So that Barnsley Coal Mine Disaster Memorial, there was a community that helped that disaster, and there’s still a legacy of it. The community is wanting it to be known and remembered. So I felt that it was important that places like that went into my book, really.

Joanna: I agree with a lot of the places in the book, but you do have a lot more memorials and things than I would have I’ve. I’ve got the book right here next to me. I’ve got my copy next to me, and I just opened it. I just opened it to London.

So you’ve got the Hunterian Museum, which is awesome. I should say that it inspired my book Desecration. I love that museum. Then next to it is the Hungerford Footbridge Skateboard Graveyard. So I was like, okay, that’s really interesting because I do know that if you walk over that bridge, you can see it. Why choose something like that?

Is that more, as you said, the response to grief over something people care about?

Leon: Yes, it’s the response of the skateboarding community of what took place on that foot bridge, at the end of the day. It’s kind of how they remember a local skater, that aspect of how they pull together and remember their fellow skater. They lay their skateboards and chuck them over the bridge.

Joanna: It’s interesting. In the book you say, “The skateboarding community has shown how the process of grief differs among communities, and there’s a need to personalize the way we honor someone’s life.” So I love that. I think it’s really interesting what you’ve done with the book.

One of the things I noticed immediately is that there are lots of pictures. I’ve discovered that image permissions are a nightmare. Even if they’re your photos, if they’re in a private place, then you need permission.

How did you manage the image permissions?

Leon: It stems back to building that relationship with places. So I’d write the piece and send it over, and they would be quite happy with it. Then I would say, I’ve got images from myself, or I’ve sourced images, are you happy for this to be featured alongside it?

There was like, yes. Other places would be like, oh, we prefer to give you an image for it to be credited. So I was happy to do that. It was literally building that relationship and saying, “I’m writing a book. I’m looking at featuring you in my book. Can I write a piece and see what you think?”

I was making sure that the kind of factual history element was correct, and then going from there, really. There was a couple of sites who were like, “No, you can write a piece, but we don’t wish for an image to be featured because we don’t allow photography within this space.”

So that’s why there’s a few places I name that have not got images because they were happy for the entry to be featured, but as they don’t allow permission of photography, they didn’t wish for an image to be featured within the book.

Joanna: Did you have to pay for any permissions?

Leon: I did have to pay for a few of the permissions.

Joanna: What sort of price?

Leon: It varies a lot. One of them was 170 pounds to have it within my book to get the permission, but I was adamant that I wanted that image within my book.

Joanna: Yes, you have a lot of images. I like the book a lot because it has so many images. As I said, when I looked at it, I was like, oh my goodness, I know how much pain this is. You must be very organized then to keep track of everything. Like, if you’re emailing all these places, you’re sending them text, you’re asking for images.

Did you have a process for keeping track of permissions, or are you just a super organized person?

Leon: I am a very organized person. I get told I’m too organized. Even in doing my day job, I get told I’m too over organized because I’m looking at kind of February now. People are like, Christmas is not even here yet.

So, yes, it was emailing places, and then I’d have kind of that written permission, and I’d put it to one kind of side to keep at the end of the day. I think my designer has a few as well.

We keep them to one side because if later down the road, they were to say they don’t wish for that image to be featured anymore, that’s fine. We can obviously remove it and things later, at a later day.

Joanna: You mentioned your job.

What do you do as a day job?

Leon: I am an activities coordinator in a care home. So that did actually come in. It did make me think a little bit when I was writing about my book, because working with the elderly generation, history is important to them.

I was speaking to the residents, and they would tell me aspects of the war and stuff. They were so passionate about telling their stories to make sure that future generations were known and they were told correctly. So that had a bit of an impact as well while I was writing my book.

Joanna: Oh, I love that. So you mentioned your designer. So tell us, how did you work with the designer? As you said, you’re quite controlling, so you must have known how you wanted it to look.

How did you find a designer and then work with them?

Leon: Three designers actually collaborated on this book together. I had one main designer, Marie-Louise, who owns the company Lovely Evolution. Then she was working with another two designers as well, and they gave me different proofs.

Then I picked aspects that I liked from different proofs, and then that was brought into one. I was a bit picky along the way of my process of designing it.

So even when I got the proofs—because there’s a background on the pages, like the illustrations behind the text and the images and stuff—we only had the one proof of that. I was like, oh, it’d be a really good idea to have the sections with a different background.

So it was little bits like that I picked out and made suggestions. All three designers were very good at working together. It was just a bit of a jigsaw puzzle, as you can probably see from looking at it, and fitting it all together.

Joanna: Yes. I mean, I think my brain is very different to your brain. It is, as you say, a jigsaw puzzle. Your brain must have figured out how you wanted it to go.

As you say, there’s so many little extra things. Like in the corner of each section, there’s like a little illustration as well. A dragon in Wales, and different things there. As you say, different background images as well as other images. I just think it’s incredible.

You mentioned there, three designers, it’s took you three years, you’ve got all these permissions.

What kind of budget did you have for this book? Basically, is this a labor of love?

Leon: It is a labor of love because I’m just very passionate about our British history at the end of the day. With dark tourism, people associate so many places abroad, like Auschwitz, the Catacombs of Paris, Ground Zero.

I was just like, there’s so much to England. So it was a very passionate project in showing there’s so much more in England that’s linked to dark tourism than people initially thought. There has been a budget and that has gone over a bit, I’m not going to lie.

Joanna: It does look like a pricey project, as far as I can see. I did want to ask, because at the moment the copy I have is a large scale, but it’s still paperback. So are you planning on doing an eBook? I think it would work on a tablet, on an iPad or something. I think you could also do an audiobook, or a short form podcast, or a hardback.

Are you thinking of doing other editions?

Leon: I can’t say too much because we are working on other little things, but the physicality of the book is an important part to myself. Like I feel like to appreciate it, you’ve got to be holding it.

I know a lot of people like tablets and things, and I do understand that, but I just feel like it’s so heavily designed. My designers like really hard on designing it and piecing it all together.

Like the maps on their own, Mark worked on the maps at Pixooma, and he took three months just working on the maps on their own. So I just feel like you have to be holding it to appreciate it. I’m a bit old school like that.

Joanna: I love this. You’re like, 20 years younger than me, and you’re so old school. I am actually holding it, and I am appreciating it as we’re talking.

When did you work with an editor in the process, for the words?

Leon: I started working with an editor really early on. Before the design kind of process, it was important to get the editing aspect of it all done to hand over to my designers because of the length of the text, and obviously then putting it together like a puzzle piece.

So working with an editor started very early on, and she worked on Lonely kind of Planet guide books, and had a lot of experience on guide books and things. She made a number of really good suggestions, as well as the text. She also helped me on proofs of the designs. So she gave suggestions for the designs from her experience.

Joanna: I think that’s a great person to work with, someone who’s done like the Lonely Planet books. It is similar to that in the vibe, in that you don’t sit down and read this cover to cover. You’re going to dip in and out depending on different areas. I buy books like this for inspiration for my own travels, but also for my own writing. So I think that’s cool.

So we’ve got the book. You’ve invested your time and your money in making this beautiful book, but marketing this kind of book is difficult. So tell us—

How have you been marketing the book?

Leon: I haven’t stopped marketing the book since its release. It’s been a real push. I’ve marketed the book from doing a few book signing events that stemmed from me building that relationship with places. So they’ve been happy enough to hold me for book signing events.

Then I’ve also done podcasts with people. I’m using social media. I’m speaking about the book wherever I can, really.

Joanna: I did see you doing signings at interesting venues, like some of your dark venues, on social media.

How did you get people to come along to those signings?

Many people, including myself, are scared of doing signings because often nobody shows up. So how did you do that? How were those?

Leon: Yes, they worked okay. It did depend on the day and the footfall. A lot of the attractions, because we’d organize this book signing, they would promote it on their social media or via their newsletter.

What really helped, some places have been better than other places, but there has been this rippling effect I have noticed afterwards. So I have had people contact me afterwards and said, “Oh, I saw that you were at Shrewsbury Prison. I’d actually be interested in a copy of your book.”

Then I’ve also had places that have been then willing to stock it in their gift shop as well.

Joanna: I was going to ask about the bookshops because it seems to me a lot of these bigger places have bookstores, and if you can get them to take some copies and do it like that. I do know the profit margin on that is very low, and they’ll want their own profit.

Are you pursuing more bookstore sales, or are you preferring to sell from Amazon?

Leon: I think the agreements have worked quite well so far. The places that I’ve built that relationship with and worked with, they’ve been quite good, really, in compromising. Obviously they have wanted to take a profit and a percentage of that, but then obviously they understand the product as well.

Obviously, there’s the time that I’ve put into it and my designers working on it and everything. So they’ve been quite good at working together.

Joanna: Then on social media, obviously you’ve been posting photos of you in these different places and some of the research stuff.

What have you found works on social media?

Or are you just trying to do as much as possible and see what happens?

Leon: I think one thing I have noticed is getting it into the relevant groups that would be interested and showing how that is relevant to that group. If you’re going to use social media and just plow it across social media and use kind of one post, then it probably wouldn’t work.

I’ve been going to groups and speaking to people and stuff, and then seeing which aspects of my book links in, and then I’ve shared about. That has helped as well.

Joanna:

It is full color. It has so many pictures. The production value is high on the book. So I think this is a gift book as well.

This is something that people buy and have on their shelf or their coffee table, whatever. This is difficult in one way to market, but in other ways, it’s evergreen.

So it’s going to keep selling over time, as opposed to make you tons of money right now and then stop selling. This is more like a long-term prospect, I think.

Leon: Yes, definitely. Me and the designers I work with wanted it as that guidebook that you can take with you, but also it’s a coffee table, bookshelf kind of book that is a talking point. It’s something that you can pick up, read one entry and put it back down, and then pick up and read a different entry another day.

So it’s not going to generate that massive one-time income. I do to see it is a trickle in, long-term thing. Hopefully, I’ll work on other ideas alongside that.

Joanna: Yes, well, that’s the other thing. Marketing one book is hard. So are you considering Dark Attractions of Europe?

Have you thought of other book ideas? Or was it just a one-off?

Leon: There are other ideas. I’m working with my designers, and I’m also still working with the attractions closely. So, yes, there’s little ideas there, but it would be at a moment where I’m just not expecting it, and it will all just gel itself together.

Like I said going back, you inspired me. I’d learned of this term dark tourism, and it was when I was on a holiday of an evening. It literally will be that I’ll have a moment, and I’ll think, right, okay, that is it. So, yes, I’m kind of working on a few different ideas that I’m trying to just gel together at the moment.

Joanna: I love that. You said you’re super organized and quite controlling, but you’re also intuitive. So I think that sounds great.

Just looking back over the years you’ve been working on this project. So if people are thinking of doing something like this—

What would you say were the biggest challenges of this project that you’ve learned to do differently if you do another project like this?

Leon: I think don’t put too much pressure on yourself. Along the whole process of my book, I was very harsh myself because it was a vast book, and I was doing a number of different places.

There’s so many aspects to this book. Designing, researching, writing, and then I was emailing, and I was calling, and I was sourcing images. If you’re going to take on a big project like this, don’t be too harsh on yourself.

Just give a good time management to each aspect that you’re working on. Have time to step back away from the whole desk to re-energize because it was a hefty project to take on. I was very determined, but I was very harsh on myself as well.

Joanna: I do remember when we had originally talked, you had a timeline in mind. Then you said, no, it’s going to take longer. As you said, this is a huge project.

Had you underestimated the amount of work?

Leon: Yes, definitely. I definitely underestimated. I was writing, and there were so many places that I wanted to get in and then research. Then when I got to just over 300 I was like, this is the cut and rope kind of moment.

There’s also a lot more to the design process because I know that I wanted a lot from my designers. I asked for a lot in the whole kind of designs, and I was picky. So, yes, there was that aspect. My main designer, Marie-Louise, she fell pregnant and didn’t expect to fall pregnant in the process.

Joanna: Well, I think you’ve done an incredible job. So how do you feel now?

Are you proud of the book? Is it everything you wanted it to be?

Leon: Yes. I am really proud of it. I am happy with it. I just want to keep on pushing it and getting it out there and known. It’s not a financial element, it’s actually I want to get more of our history made aware.

Like I said, there is loads of little places in there that are simple memorials, or just little places that people are just not aware about. I’m very passionate about our British history, and I just want it to be known. I want to give people inspiration to just have a simple little day trip out.

People say, “Oh, there’s nothing to do, and we’ve got to go abroad to go on holiday.” There’s just so much that people don’t realize that there is to do.

Joanna: That is so true. The more I stay in our country, the more interesting I find things. There’s so much history here.

Where can people find you and the book online?

Leon: You can find my book on Amazon. I have a Facebook page at Dark Attractions in the UK. People can follow me through that and keep up to date.

Joanna: So thanks so much for your time today, Leon. That was great.

Leon: Thank you, Joanna, for having me. It was fantastic speaking to you. Thank you.

Takeaways

• Dark tourism encompasses a wide range of sites and experiences.
• Personal experiences at dark tourism sites can inspire deeper reflections on life.
• The motivations for visiting dark tourism sites vary greatly among individuals.
• Self-publishing allows for greater creative control over content and design.
• Researching dark tourism requires thorough investigation and relationship-building with sites.
• Community responses to tragedies can shape the memorialization of events.
• Dark tourism can evoke a spectrum of emotions, from respect to fascination.
• The relationship between dark tourism and true crime reflects a societal curiosity about death.
• Image permissions can be a significant challenge in publishing.
• Being organized is crucial when managing extensive research and communications. Historical permissions are crucial for ethical storytelling.
• Collaboration with designers can enhance the creative process.
• Passion for a subject can drive a project forward.
• The physicality of a book adds to its appreciation.
• Editing should be prioritized early in the process.
• Marketing requires consistent effort and creativity.
• Social media engagement is key to reaching audiences.
• Books can serve as both guides and coffee table pieces.
• Long-term vision is important for book sales.
• Managing expectations is essential in large projects.

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