The Ultimate Writing Glossary (Story Structure, Character Arcs, and More)

Over the years, I’ve developed a set of terms that have become foundational to how I teach storytelling. A few I’ve coined myself, others I’ve adapted, and some I’ve simply emphasized so frequently they’ve become closely associated with my approach to character arcs, story structure, and theme. Whether you’ve followed my work through this blog or my books and courses, chances are you’ve come across many of these ideas and maybe even adopted them into your own writing process.

Back in the early days of Helping Writers Become Authors, I published a crowd-sourced glossary of general writing terms. That original post brought in a wealth of contributions and turned into a collaborative resource I still point writers toward to this day. But as my own language and frameworks have evolved over the years, I realized it was time for a new version that reflects the specific tools and concepts I teach most often and rely on in my own work.

In the sections below, you’ll find a curated glossary of the core storytelling terms I use throughout my teachings. These include concepts like the Lie the Character Believes, the Ghost, the Flat Arc, and many others you’ve likely seen referenced in my materials. Rather than alphabetizing them, I’ve grouped them in a rough chronology so that if you read them straight through, they build to express the big picture of my writing philosophy.

Whether you’re brand new to writing or simply looking for clarity on some of the terms I throw around regularly, I hope this glossary serves as a helpful reference and maybe even a little inspiration! If you’re seeking the definition of a writing term you don’t see here, be sure to check out the original glossary of writing terms, which contains many more helpful descriptions.

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The Ultimate Writing Glossary of K.M. Weiland’s Terms

Ideation & Outlining

Outlining

Outlining is the act of crafting a guide to the general structure, arc, and meaning of a story—usually before writing the first draft. It is sometimes used synonymously with the idea of “plotting” as opposed to “writing by seat of your pants” (i.e., “pantsing”) or “discovery writing.” My approach to the outlining process is less of a rigid or skeletal plot structure and more of a free-flowing brainstorming “out loud” process in which the shape of the story is thoroughly explored before shifting into the intricacies of writing the narrative in the first draft.

For further study:

Outlining Your Novel: Map Your Way to Success by K.M. Weiland
Outlining Your Novel Workbook 200

Dreamzoning

Dreamzoning is “daydreaming on steroids,” a form of intense, purposeful daydreaming used to generate story ideas. Unlike casual musing, dreamzoning uses focused imagination to actively visualize scenes, characters, and scenarios. It’s a fun, powerful technique that allows your subconscious creativity to freely explore possibilities. By setting aside time to “zone out” and vividly imagine story moments, you can discover inspiring concepts and solutions that might not surface through analytical brainstorming alone.

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Plot & Story Structure

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Hook

The Hook is the story’s opening question or curiosity that “hooks” readers’ attention from page one. The Hook sets the tone and promise of the story, ensuring the audience is invested from the very beginning. It is also the first structural beat in the story—the first “domino” in the line of dominoes that form the plot.

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Inciting Event

The Inciting Event is the critical turning point early in the story (usually halfway through the First Act or around the 12% mark of the narrative) in which the protagonist first encounters the main conflict. It’s the Call to Adventure (see below) that upsets normal life and thrusts the character toward the story’s central challenge. This is the catalyst that first introduces the protagonist to the main plot dynamic. The protagonist may not fully engage with the conflict yet, but the Inciting Event introduces the problem or opportunity that will eventually require a committed response. The Inciting Event is a pivotal turning point that sets up everything to come.

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Call to Adventure

If you divide the Inciting Event into two halves (as all major structural beats are divided), the Call to Adventure represents the first half, in which the protagonist is presented with a new opportunity, challenge, or “adventure.” The Call to Adventure symbolically asks the protagonist to step out of the Normal World and enter the fray of the plot. The Call to Adventure establishes the stakes and promise of the journey to come, even if the protagonist doesn’t immediately answer it.

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Refusal of the Call

The Refusal of the Call is the closing half of the Inciting Event, in which the protagonist reacts with hesitation or outright refusal to the Call to Adventure. It highlights reluctance, fear, or attachments that make the protagonist initially resistant to engaging with the main conflict. For example, the protagonist might doubt personal ability, fear the unknown, or feel obligated to remain in the Normal World. This moment of refusal adds realism and stakes by showing what the character stands to lose and that the coming conflict can’t be taken lightly.

First Plot Point

The First Plot Point is the major turning point that ends the First Act (around the 25% mark) and propels the story into the Second Act. It is often called a Threshold or Door of No Return because it thrusts the protagonist into a new and irrevocable direction. After this plot point, the protagonist enters the Adventure World or main conflict in the Second Act, leaving the Normal World behind. The stakes are raised, the antagonist’s presence becomes clear, and the protagonist can no longer go back to life as it was before.

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Point of No Return

This beat represents the first half of the First Plot Point. It refers to the moment when the protagonist becomes irrevocably committed to the conflict. From here, there is no going back to the old life. This is where the protagonist metaphorically crosses a threshold into the main story world or conflict (either entering a new setting or seeing the old setting changed in some significant way). The Point of No Return ensures the protagonist can’t simply quit the conflict. Circumstances or decisions have now locked the character into pursuing the plot goal and confronting the antagonistic force.

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Key Event

Representing the second half of the First Plot Point, the Key Event is when the protagonist is fully drawn into the story’s main conflict. This is where the protagonist fully “accepts the Call” and cannot turn back. Usually, it is a proactive decision on the character’s part in response to the sometimes involuntary events at the Point of No Return.

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First Pinch Point

The First Pinch Point is an important structural turning point occurring in the first half of the Second Act (around the 37% mark). It emphasizes the threat of the antagonistic force, shows what is at stake for the protagonist in the conflict, and introduces important new clues about the nature of the conflict.

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Midpoint (Second Plot Point)

The Midpoint is the Second Plot Point in a story’s structure. It occurs in the middle of the book, halfway through the Second Act, at the 50% mark. This is where the protagonist experiences a Moment of Truth, which allows a better understanding of the antagonistic force and the external conflict, as well as the internal conflict driving the character arc. It signals a shift from the reactive phase of the first half into the active phase of the second half.

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Moment of Truth

As the first of the two beats that make up the Midpoint, the Moment of Truth is a pivotal scene in which the protagonist is confronted by a revealing insight or reality that challenges previous beliefs or the Lie the Character Believes. Here, the protagonist witnesses the story’s thematic Truth. For the first time, the character sees things as they truly are, even if only briefly or incompletely. This means the character now understands something fundamental that will trigger a change in tactics or attitude. The Moment of Truth serves as the pivot of the character’s inner arc. From here on, the character will begin to act on this new knowledge. The Moment of Truth raises the emotional stakes by highlighting what’s at stake for the character internally.

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Plot Revelation

Whereas the Moment of Truth focuses on a character-based or thematic insight, the Plot Revelation (as the second half of the Midpoint) emphasizes information that dramatically alters the plot’s trajectory. The two revelations are intrinsically related, with one usually inspiring the other. In the Plot Revelation, the protagonist often discovers something that reframes the conflict (such as the villain’s true plan, a hidden identity, a secret weakness, or any game-changing information). This revelation empowers or challenges the protagonist while escalating the stakes by making the conflict more personal or urgent. From here, the protagonist can take more informed, decisive actions.

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Second Pinch Point

The Second Pinch Point is an important structural turning point that occurs in the second half of the Second Act at the 62% mark. Like the First Pinch Point, it emphasizes the threat of the antagonistic force, shows what is at stake for the protagonist in the conflict, and introduces important new clues about the nature of the conflict.

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Third Plot Point

The Third Plot Point occurs at the 75% mark, marking the end of the Second Act and the beginning of the Third Act. This is where the protagonist experiences a Low Moment of defeat and is faced with a choice about whether the conflict so far has been worth the effort. This beat proves whether the character will embrace or reject the Lie the Character Believes. From here, the character will enter the final confrontation with the antagonistic force.

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False Victory

As the first half of the Third Plot Point, the False Victory is where the protagonist appears to succeed, only to discover this “victory” is misleading or short-lived. The False Victory highlights both how far the protagonist has come in the character arc and how much the Lie the Character Believes is still impeding progress and evolution. This beat is crucial because it creates a final crucible to show the character how to fully grow and gain the perspectives and skills necessary to succeed in the plot.

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Low Moment

Often referred to as a “Dark Night of the Soul,” the Low Moment represents the second half of the Third Plot Point. This is where the protagonist hits rock bottom in both the inner and outer conflicts. The protagonist is confronted with the consequences of failure after the False Victory. This is a moment of crisis in which the character faces the Lie s/he has believed throughout the story. This beat sets up the revelation or resolve required to move into the Climax. Here, the protagonist will realize something important (often finally rejecting the Lie or embracing the Truth) and feels empowered to try again.

Climax

This is the finale of the story, featuring the final decisive confrontation between the protagonist and the antagonistic force, determining whether or not the protagonist will succeed or fail in gaining the main plot goal. The Climax begins in a turning point halfway into the Third Act, starting around the 88% mark.

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Climactic Moment

This is the definitive moment in which the overall goal is reached or not reached. This is the moment when the protagonist defeats the antagonist or vice versa, thus ending the plot conflict.

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Sacrifice

This first beat of the Climactic Moment represents the culmination of everything the protagonist has learned so far in the story. In order to reach for the plot goal, the character will have to prove willing to make some sort of sacrifice, even if it is just the death of the “old self” who held to the Lie the Character Believed throughout the story.

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Success/Failure

The second half of the Climactic Moment shows whether or not the character’s sacrifice was sufficient. The character will end the plot conflict with either a definitive success or a definitive failure.

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Resolution

This is the final section of the story—usually the last two to three scenes in the final chapter. This is where any final loose ends will be resolved after the main conflict has already been decided.

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Normal World

This is the initial setting in the story, meant to illustrate the characters’ lives before they meet with the story’s main conflict. Symbolically, it represents the First Act. The Normal World may be destructive to the protagonist (in which case, the protagonist must learn to move away from it and live without it), or it may be healthy (in which case, the protagonist will defend it). The Normal World may be a definitive setting, which will change at the beginning of the Second Act. However, it may also be more metaphorical, in which case the physical setting will not change, but rather the conflict will alter the setting around the protagonist.

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Adventure World

Symbolically, the Adventure World represents the Second Act, in which the character enters the “adventure” of the story’s main conflict. This could be shown as a literal adventure, but symbolically indicates any conflict that creates the plot in which the character is engaged. This could be a romantic relationship, a murder investigation, or a family secret. It can be shown as an entirely new setting that is different from that of the Normal World in the First Act, but it may also be indicated symbolically through conflict-induced alterations in the original setting or the character’s state of being (i.e., falling in love).

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Underworld

The Underworld represents the Third Act, in which the character experiences increased pressure to synthesize the lessons learned in the Adventure World in order to favorably resolve the plot conflict. The symbolism indicates the psychological transformation required of a character in order to change enough that what was impossible at the beginning of the story (reaching the plot goal) may now come into reach.

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New Normal World

The New Normal World represents the Resolution at the end of the story, in which the changes wrought in and by the protagonist stand in contrast to the Normal World of the First Act.

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Chiastic or Ring Structure

Chiastic structure (also called “ring” structure) indicates a structural approach in which the two halves of the plot mirror or reference each other in some way. Although chiasmus can be applied intentionally, it is naturally inherent within the classic plot structure outlined above, in which beats such as the Inciting Event and Climactic Moment form natural pairs that mirror or resolve each other in some way.

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Structural Timing

Structural timing indicates the ideal placement of turning points or plot points throughout the story. The beats mentioned above (i.e., Inciting Event, First Plot Point, First Pinch Point, Midpoint, Second Pinch Point, Third Plot Point, Climax) divide the story into eight equal parts. However, structural timing need not be exact. It is predominately a question of pacing. If the pacing works, so does the timing.

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Conflict

Conflict is the engine of opposition that presents obstacles to the protagonist, thus creating the plot. The best way to think of conflict is simply as an “obstacle.” It need not be a confrontation between people (although it can be); rather, it is simply whatever opposes the protagonist’s forward movement throughout the plot.

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Plot Goal

The plot goal is whatever the protagonist is pursuing that is then interrupted with conflict (i.e., obstacles). Although the goal may be something concrete, it can also influence the story through something as abstract as an intention. From a structural perspective, what is important is simply that the character has reasons to keep moving forward, even if part of that movement is the act of discovering what the character is moving toward.

Scene Structure

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Scene

In narrative terms, a Scene is a fundamental unit of story in which a character pursues a specific goal in a continuous time and place, encountering conflict that yields an outcome. Structurally, the Scene can be broken into two halves: a scene (the action that happens when a character has a goal, then conflict interferes with that goal, resulting in an outcome) and its sequel (the character reacting to the previous outcome, then facing a dilemma, and finally making a decision that will determine the character’s goal in the next Scene).

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Goal

The goal in a scene is the specific, concrete objective the POV character wants to achieve in that scene. It sets the scene’s purpose. A strong scene goal is pertinent to the plot, meaning it’s a logical step toward the character’s larger plot goal. For instance, in one scene a character’s goal might be “sneak past the guards” and in another “convince my friend to help me.” The scene goal focuses the character’s actions and gives readers a clear expectation of an outcome. The scene goal is what the protagonist (or POV character) is trying to do or get in that moment of the story. The pursuit of that goal then generates conflict when obstacles arise.

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Conflict

Scene conflict is the challenge or opposition the POV character faces while trying to achieve the scene goal. Scene conflict is essentially the obstacle that creates tension in the scene. If the scene goal is what the character wants, then the conflict is why the character can’t immediately have it . Conflict can take many forms: another character with an opposing goal (e.g. a guard actively preventing the protagonist’s escape), environmental difficulties (e.g., a storm, a locked door), internal hesitation, or any combination thereof. The important thing is that the conflict directly correlate to the scene goal.

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Outcome/Disaster

The outcome is the result or turning point at the end of a scene’s main action. It answers the question: did the POV character achieve the scene goal or not, and what happens as a result? In order to keep the story moving, the outcome in well-structured scenes typically leans toward a complication or setback. Each scene’s disaster sets up the next scene’s goal. A strong outcome/disaster either denies the character’s goal (“No, they fail”), gives it to them with strings attached (“Yes, but…”), or creates greater unforeseen consequences (“No, and things get worse”). Not every scene must end with a disaster, but even wins should introduce new problems.

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“Yes, But…” Disaster

A “yes, but…” disaster is a type of scene outcome in which the protagonist technically achieves the scene goal, but a new complication creates a partial or hollow victory. The character achieves the scene goal only to find it doesn’t solve the problem and/or creates an unforeseen issue. For example: Yes, the detective finds the needed clue, but it implicates a friend as the suspect. This outcome tests the protagonist’s resolve since the character achieves the goal but now must deal with the consequences or the realization that this win isn’t final.

Sequel

The sequel is the second half in scene structure. It represents the phase that follows a scene’s action with an aftermath segment in which the character processes what just happened and formulates the next move. In contrast to the action-oriented scene, a sequel is introspective and transitional. Characters catch their emotional breath, react to the previous outcome/disaster, think through their new dilemma, and decide on a new goal. For example: If a scene was a battle ending in the protagonist’s defeat, the subsequent sequel might show the protagonist’s despair (reaction), consideration of alternatives or what went wrong (dilemma), and then a resolve to train harder or seek help (decision). The sequel provides a realistic emotional continuity (so characters don’t just jump from crisis to crisis without reacting). It allows for character development and thematic reflection and sets up the next scene’s goal in a logical flow.

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Reaction

The reaction is the first stage of the scene sequel, in which the POV character responds to the outcome of the previous scene. In this phase, the character isn’t yet thinking ahead, but just processing feelings. If the previous scene was a big setback, the reaction might be despair or panic. If it was a success with complications (“yes, but…”), the reaction could be mixed feelings of triumph and worry. Often, reaction is shown through interior monologue or a quiet beat (e.g., after a narrow escape, the character trembles and acknowledges fear). This validates readers’ emotions as they experience the consequences alongside the character. The reaction is usually brief but important, as it humanizes the protagonist. Only after this cathartic beat can the character move on to rationally consider what to do next (the dilemma). Skipping the reaction can make a story feel rushed or the characters unfeeling. Strong reaction segments strengthen pacing, especially after high action or drama.

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Dilemma

The dilemma is the second stage of the sequel, in which the character, having emotionally reacted, now engages in thinking through options and potential consequences. In this phase, the protagonist faces the problem or choice created by the previous scene’s outcome and asks, “What do I do now?” In the dilemma, the character may weigh pros and cons, consider different plans, or grapple with tough decisions. This stage is inherently reflective and can showcase the character’s values and internal conflict. The dilemma shows the logical thought process that bridges what just happened to what will happen next.

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Decision

The decision is the final phase of the sequel. After reacting emotionally and pondering the dilemma, the character now decides what to do next. This decision becomes the seed of the next scene’s goal. The decision prevents the story from stagnating or the character from wallowing in the aftermath of the previous scene’s outcome. Instead, it pushes the narrative onward. The decision is often accompanied by a renewed sense of purpose or change in strategy for the character. It is the bridge between one scene and the next, transitioning the character directly into the next scene’s goal.

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Character Arc & Theme

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Creating Character Arcs Workbook 165

Lie the Character Believes

The Lie the Character Believes (often just “the Lie”) is a false belief or misconception the protagonist holds at the beginning of the story. The Lie is the central inner flaw in the character’s worldview, which will be challenged by the story’s events. This Lie or limiting perspective could be personal (e.g., “I’m worthless” or “I can’t trust anyone”) or about the world (e.g., “might makes right” or “love equals weakness”). The Lie is what must change in order for the character to grow.

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Thematic Truth

The thematic Truth (often just “the Truth”) is a comparatively more expansive perspective that stands in opposition to the protagonist’s Lie. It represents the central message underlying the story’s plot and is the lesson or reality the character needs to discover in order to change positively. For instance, if the Lie is “I am unlovable,” the thematic Truth might be “You are worthy of love as you are.” The thematic Truth is not usually stated overtly to the audience, but underlies the character’s journey and the story’s resolution. It is what gives the story meaning beyond the literal events.

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Thing the Character Wants

The Thing the Character Wants (or “Want”) refers to the character’s external, conscious desire. This is something the character thinks will create happiness or solve problems. Typically fueled by the character’s Lie in some way, the Want is what then creates the more concrete plot goal. For example, if the character’s Want is to be rich, then the plot goal might be to become a successful stock broker. The Thing the Character Wants is not the same as the Thing the Character Needs. The Want is often misguided or insufficient because it is founded on the limited perspective of the Lie (e.g., wanting wealth because the character believes the Lie that “money equals worth”). The Want itself won’t genuinely fulfill the character without addressing the deeper Need/Truth. The interplay of Want vs. Need creates the internal tension that drives a character’s arc. Identifying the Thing the Character Wants helps ensure the external pursuit of the plot is tied to the character’s internal journey.

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Thing the Character Needs

The Thing the Character Needs (or “Need”) is the deeper, often unrecognized, Truth the character must achieve in order to be whole or resolve the inner conflict. The Need is what will actually fulfill the character or fix the internal problem, as opposed to what the character thinks will (i.e., the Want). The Need is usually fulfilled by overcoming the Lie and embracing the thematic Truth. The Need is moral or psychological, a lesson the character must learn or a change the character must undergo. The Third Act frequently features a choice between Want and Need. Identifying the Need clarifies the theme: the Need often is the story’s thematic Truth. It ensures the character’s personal transformation (or lack thereof) is meaningful. When the character attains the Need (even if the character doesn’t get the Want), the story is able to deliver a sense of growth and resolution.

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Ghost

A character’s Ghost is the traumatic or formative event in the backstory that continues to haunt in the present story. The Ghost (a term I first learned from John Truby) is an old wound that greatly influences the character’s motivations, fears, and the Lie the Character Believes. The Ghost is the baggage the character carries. The Ghost typically isn’t a direct part of the plot conflict, since it happened before the story began, but it drives how the character reacts in the plot. In the structure of a character arc, the Ghost can be thought of as the root cause of the Lie. Understanding the character’s Ghost helps writers craft more authentic character behavior, since it adds context to choices and motivations.

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Impact Character

The Impact Character is a strong catalyst for change in the protagonist, influencing the protagonist’s inner conflict. The Impact Character (a term from the Dramatica system) plays a crucial role in influencing the protagonist’s inner journey by representing an alternative viewpoint—usually, the thematic Truth. The Impact Character challenges the protagonist’s Lie and catalyzes change. Classic examples include mentors, love interests, best friends, or even antagonists with an essential perspective to share with the protagonist. The Impact Character typically embodies the lesson the protagonist needs. The key is that the Impact Character provides the “impact” necessary to jar the protagonist out of complacency. By spurring epiphanies, posing probing questions, or exemplifying a different path, the Impact Character externalizes the story’s theme and makes the protagonist’s internal dilemma invisible through dialogue or interpersonal conflict.

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Thematic Principle

The thematic principle is the foundational concept or proposition underlying a story’s theme. It is the story’s core thesis or unifying idea. The thematic principle is a concise statement of what the story is about on a thematic level, often encapsulating the conflict between the Lie and the Truth in more universal terms. For example, a thematic principle might be “justice vs. mercy” or “true love is stronger than pride” or “greed leads to self-destruction.” The thematic principle is more specific than a one-word theme (such as “love” or “power”) and more nuanced than a blunt moral. It is the principle that is ultimately proven or disproven by the story’s events. The thematic principle is a story’s central argument boiled down to a single guiding idea. Once the writer knows this, it becomes easier to ensure that subplots, conflicts, and resolutions all reflect this principle to create a cohesive narrative. In essence, the thematic principle is the story’s heart expressed in an idea. It’s not usually stated outright in the text, but by the end, it should be clear in the story’s resolution.

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Thematic Metaphor

The thematic metaphor is the symbolic “language” a story uses to exemplify its theme via the story’s external plot. It is a way of expressing the story’s theme through imagery, scenarios, or concepts woven into the plot and setting, rather than through direct statement. All stories are, in some way, a thematic metaphor, in that the external conflict is a representation of the story’s deeper inner conflict. In some stories, such as fables or allegories, the symbolic nature of the external plot becomes quite obvious. In more realistic stories, the thematic metaphor may be less abstract.  For example, in a story about the destructive nature of obsession, a spreading wildfire might serve as a thematic metaphor for the character’s burning obsession consuming everything. Thematic metaphors can be found in recurring symbols (like seasons, objects, or motifs) or in the story’s premise itself. A classic instance is Moby Dick: the white whale is a literal antagonist but also a thematic metaphor for the unknowable, nature, or God.

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Positive Change Arc

A Positive Change Arc is about a character who overcomes the limited perspective of the Lie and expands into accepting the thematic Truth. For example, if the protagonist believes the Lie that “money is the only measure of success,” this will be challenged throughout the narrative by a healthier Truth, such as “love and integrity matter more than money.” In a Positive Change Arc, the plot tests the Lie and gradually reveals the Truth to the character. The character will end by embracing the thematic Truth.

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Flat Arc

In a Flat Arc, the protagonist begins the story already in possession of the story’s central thematic Truth. Rather than undergoing a dramatic internal transformation, as in a Positive or Negative Change Arc, the Flat Arc character remains internally stable throughout the story. The arc instead revolves around the protagonist’s influence on the external world; the protagonist acts as an Impact Character, confronting a widespread Lie within the story world and catalyzing change in others. Although the protagonist may face personal struggles or moments of doubt, the character’s core beliefs remain intact. The journey is about standing firm in the Truth and acting as a model to others. The Flat Arc is thematically powerful because it dramatizes how one person’s commitment can ripple outward into meaningful transformation in the world.

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Negative Change Arc

In a Negative Change Arc, the protagonist begins in relative stability but ends in personal or moral ruin. Unlike the Positive Change Arc, in which the character overcomes the Lie and embraces the thematic Truth, the Negative Change Arc features a character who either rejects the Truth outright, fails to understand it fully, or twists it to justify harmful actions. This arc often explores tragic or cautionary themes, showing how disillusionment, fear, or pride can lead a character deeper into the Lie. There are several variations of the Negative Arc—including the Disillusionment Arc, the Fall Arc, and the Corruption Arc (see below)—all of which chart different paths of internal descent, ultimately highlighting the consequences of resisting integrity and growth.

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Disillusionment Arc

The Disillusionment Arc is a type of Negative Change Arc that mirrors the Positive Change Arc with a protagonist who begins the story with a deeply held belief in a Lie. However, unlike in a Positive Change Arc, the Truth the character uncovers by the end does not bring hope or healing. Instead, the character comes to see a painful reality behind personal illusions, often realizing that the world, a trusted person, or even personal ideals were not completely true. Although the protagonist gains clarity, it comes at the cost of innocence, purpose, or emotional well-being. This arc is often quieter and more introspective than other Negative Arcs, leaning heavily into themes of loss, ambiguity, and the harshness of truth that offers no clear redemption.

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Fall Arc

The Fall Arc is a tragic form of the Negative Change Arc in which the protagonist also begins the story believing in the Lie—with potential for growth—but makes increasingly destructive choices that lead to moral or personal downfall. This character often believes a Lie that distorts the understanding of self or the world. Rather than confronting it, the character doubles down out of pride, fear, or ambition. The Fall Arc is marked by a progressive unraveling. As the character rejects the thematic Truth, these actions isolate the character, corrupt personal values, and ultimately cost everything. The Fall Arc is a powerful arc for exploring the consequences of hubris, moral compromise, and the refusal to change.

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Corruption Arc

The Corruption Arc is the darkest variation of the Negative Arc. In this arc, the protagonist not only falls into ruin but embraces it. Rather than being challenged by the Lie, the character actively adopts it as “Truth,” often finding a twisted form of empowerment or control through this descent. The Corruption Arc charts the transformation of a character who may begin in a place of relative neutrality or even good intentions but gradually chooses self-serving, harmful, or malicious actions. This arc is especially powerful for exploring the seductive nature of power, the erosion of empathy, and the conscious rejection of moral truth. Unlike the Disillusionment or Fall Arcs, which can evoke sympathy, the Corruption Arc tends to leave the audience with a sense of dread, horror, or moral reckoning.

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Character Archetypes

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Life Cycle of Archetypal Character Arcs

The Life Cycle is a developmental framework that maps the evolution of a character’s internal growth across a lifetime of thematic journeys. Rather than focusing solely on the Hero’s Journey, this cycle presents six mythic and successive journeys (alternating between feminine and masculine) that reflect different seasons of human experience. At each stage, the character embodies a specific transformational archetype—Maiden, Hero, Queen, King, Crone, and Mage—and undertakes a corresponding arc that reflects the psychological and thematic challenges of that life phase. The Life Cycle also encompasses six Flat Arc periods that precede each transformational journey—Child, Lover, Parent, Ruler, Elder, and Mentor. Throughout the entire Life Cycle, characters may also also face or embody corresponding shadow archetypes (both passive and aggressive) and archetypal antagonists (both inner and outer). This cyclical view offers a rich, mythically resonant structure for deepening character development in a single story or across a larger series.

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Transformational Archetypes or Journeys

The Transformational Archetypes—Maiden, Hero, Queen, King, Crone, and Mage—represent a progression of Positive Change Arcs that reflect key developmental milestones in the human experience. These archetypes align with the life seasons of a character’s journey, each offering its own unique challenges and opportunities for growth. The Maiden and Hero embody early-life arcs centered on discovering identity, testing limits, and learning to act with integrity and courage. The Queen and King transition into midlife roles of stewardship and service as the character matures emotionally and ethically by taking on increasing responsibility for others. Finally, the Crone and Mage represent elderhood, with wisdom, legacy, and spiritual clarity coming to the forefront. These arcs are all Positive Change Arcs, in which the character overcomes a limiting Lie, embraces a thematic Truth, and transforms internally in a way that benefits not only the self, but often the broader community as well. Collectively, these archetypes trace a powerful map of human maturation through storytelling.

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Flat (or Static) Archetypes

Flat archetypes portray characters who already possess a firm grasp of the story’s thematic Truth and remain internally steadfast throughout the narrative. Instead of undergoing personal transformation, these characters serve as stabilizing forces or guides, influencing others to grow or change. Within the framework of the Life Cycle of Archetypal Character Arcs, Flat archetypes alternate with the transformational archetypes, representing the periods of integration that take place after each transformational journey. Flat archetypes appear not only in the early and mid stages of life (as with the Child, Lover, Parent, and Ruler) but also in the later stages (with the Elder and Mentor). Though their arcs are Flat in structure, these characters play pivotal roles in helping others confront Lies, embrace Truths, and fulfill their own transformational journeys.

For further study:

Shadow Archetypes

Shadow archetypes represent the distorted or wounded versions of each transformational archetype. Rather than embodying the thematic Truth, shadow archetypes operate from a place of fear, repression, or misused power, often doubling down on the Lie. Shadow archetypes are presented as pairs that reflect both the passive and aggressive expressions of certain inner drives—for example Damsel/Vixen (distorted Maiden), Coward/Bully (distorted Hero), Snow Queen/Sorceress (distorted Queen), Puppet/Tyrant (distorted King), Hermit/Wicked Witch (distorted Crone), and Miser/Sorcerer (distorted Mage). When written with depth and nuance, these archetypes not only challenge the protagonist but also reflect who the character risks becoming if the Truth is not embraced.

For further study:

Archetypal Antagonists

Archetypal antagonists are deeply symbolic forces that represent the collective resistance to an archetype’s thematic Truth. Unlike shadow archetypes (which reflect the personal, often internalized distortions of individual characters), archetypal antagonists function on a mythic or systemic level, manifesting as corrupt institutions, cultural illusions, existential threats, or even metaphysical forces—as well as internal catalysts. These antagonists are presented in symbolic pairs (reflecting both structural roles and thematic opposition), which successively oppose each transformational archetype. The Maiden faces Authority and the Predator, the Hero faces the Sick King and Dragon, the Queen faces the Empty Throne and Invaders, the King faces Rebels and a Cataclysm, the Crone faces the Tempter and a Death Blight, and the Mage faces the Weakness of Mankind and Evil. These archetypes are invaluable for stories exploring epic, allegorical, or deeply thematic stakes, allowing writers to pit their protagonists against challenges that are not just physical, but symbolic and mythic.

For further study:

***

Whether you’re brand new to my approach or have been using these terms for years, I hope this glossary gives you a deeper understanding of the language behind your stories. These concepts—many of which I’ve refined over time or developed to meet the nuanced needs of modern storytelling—are more than just vocabulary. They’re tools to help you think more clearly, write more intentionally, and craft stories that resonate on both structural and thematic levels. As always, use what serves you, adapt what inspires you, and keep building your own creative lexicon as you go. Happy writing!

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The post The Ultimate Writing Glossary (Story Structure, Character Arcs, and More) appeared first on Helping Writers Become Authors.

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Author: K.M. Weiland | @KMWeiland

/ Jul 14, 2025 / Comments Off on The Ultimate Writing Glossary (Story Structure, Character Arcs, and More)

How To Get More Book Reviews With Joe Walters

Are you struggling to get reviews for your book? Wondering how to navigate the different types of reviews, from customer feedback to professional blurbs? Joe Walters from IndependentBookReview.com gives his tips.

In the intro, how important is ‘truth’ in memoir? The Observer on Raynor Winn’s The Salt Path; Raynor’s statement; Memoir controversies [The Guardian]; Tips on memoir writing and ‘truth’; The Buried and the Drowned Short Story Collection; and when life stops you from achieving a goal.

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Today’s show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Joe Walters is the author of The Truth About Book Reviews: An Insider’s Guide to Getting and Using Reviews to Grow Your Readership, and also runs IndependentBookReview.com, which focuses on reviewing indie books.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

  • What are the three different types of book reviews?
  • How to get customer reviews, whether you’re a new author or more established
  • Why blurbs / editorial reviews are still worth getting and how to use them
  • Pitching influencers, book bloggers, and more
  • What kind of reviews can you pay for, and what can you definitely NOT pay for?
  • Handling negative reviews, and the importance of getting feedback before publication

You can find Joe at IndependentBookReview.com.

Transcript of Interview with Joe Walters

Joanna: Joe Walters is the author of The Truth About Book Reviews: An Insider’s Guide to Getting and Using Reviews to Grow Your Readership, and also runs IndependentBookReview.com, which focuses on reviewing indie books. So welcome to the show, Joe.

Joe: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: It’s good to have you on. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Joe: I started writing back in college and fell in love with it through Ray Bradbury. I wanted to be a high school English teacher, but I learned pretty quickly that teaching was a lot of work when I came home, and not the same as discussing books in college.

So, I decided to become a volunteer reader for a literary magazine called Indianola Review. We were print and digital, and I would read short stories with a team and vote on whether they would be published. I absolutely loved that.

I moved away from teaching and became a server so that I could have more time to read and write. While I was serving, I found a job in Oregon as the marketing director at a small press called Inkwater Press.

By some miracle, I got that job and had to figure out what book marketing was. It’s a long game, and I read your book and so many others about how to do it. I got my feet wet, figured out how to market and sell books, and how to get authors who I knew cared about their writing read by more people.

Then I had to move from Portland, Oregon, and come back home to Pennsylvania. But I didn’t want to stop being in publishing, so I started Independent Book Review.

I knew that indie authors needed a platform for book reviews, and I knew I could do a good job with it.

I started building that and worked freelance for two other indie presses, Paper Raven Books and Sunbury Press. I was targeting book reviews for them, doing metadata, book descriptions, author bios—anything you could think of for book marketing.

I was doing all of that for those presses while building Independent Book Review. A couple of years ago, Independent Book Review became my full-time job. So every day, I’m editing and promoting reviews, and it’s truly the best job I’ve ever had.

Joanna: I love that. I love that you have loved books and stories so much that you’ve dedicated so much time to it. But why indie books then? Because you obviously worked in the more traditional side as well, and you come from literature at university and all that.

Why did you choose indie books?

Joe: I just knew how much they needed it. It has nothing to do with quality why they’re not getting picked up by major review companies or major blurbers. Their books are still great.

They still get editing and great cover design, but they don’t have big teams or a lot of money behind them pushing the books. I knew how much I could at least be another voice for them.

“Indie” really means all of the authors that you know down the street, your friends. It’s very rare that you’re friends with Stephen King.

I’m trying to help the little guy who loves writing and books and just wants to get his work out there.

So, I’m all indie all the time, that’s for sure. Except for my leisure reading—sometimes I dabble elsewhere.

Joanna: We all read around. When you are a big reader like we are, you hardly ever look at the publisher, right? It’s not like we go shopping by publisher, but you are right in terms of who reviews stuff. Then your own book—

What kind of writing have you done, and tell us why you wanted to do this book?

Joe: I’ve always been a fiction writer. I’ve been writing short stories for a long time. I’m still working on a novel I started 10 years ago, and it’s not there yet. I wanted to finish that book before I got my book review book out, but then I just had to get the book review book out.

I couldn’t wait on my little 10-year-old protagonist anymore. I had to jump in and offer my expertise to the indie community for book reviews.

Mostly, when I was working for presses, I just got the question a lot: “How do you get book reviews?” “How do you get certain types of book reviews?” So, big media, blogs, podcast interviews, customer reviews—I got all of these questions all the time. I wanted to create a resource for all of those authors.

I enjoy writing about it too. I’ve been writing book marketing blogs for years, and I always thought that was my best chance of making jokes. So I filled my book with jokes and as much experience and knowledge as I have, and put them all in one place.

You’re going to get specific platforms to try pitching. You’re going to have book review resources in my book. I just tried to gather all of the things in one place instead of authors and presses searching forever to figure out what works.

I tried to compress everything I know into one document, and now I’ve got it with The Truth About Book Reviews.

Joanna: It is super useful. We are going to come to the content of the book in a minute. Given that this was, I guess, your first self-publishing experience, how did that go?

Did you learn anything that made you understand why being an indie is difficult?

Joe: Oh, too many things.

First of all, the timeline. The hope I had for finishing a book in like three months definitely got sidetracked. With the amount of things I have to do for Independent Book Review and in my everyday life, three months was impossible.

Initially, I said, “Oh, this book’s going to be out in January,” and here we are with a July 10th release date and I’m still sprinting. So that is difficult.

Also, I tried to upload my ebook for KDP pre-order about two weeks ago with a different subtitle, and they shut me down four or five different times before I had to change it. I even told my wife, “I’m not changing the subtitle. I like it too much. I’m not keyword farming or anything. I’m not cheating.”

My book is about books. The subtitle was originally “An Insider’s Guide to Getting Book Reviews and Using Them to Market Your Book.” Pretty straightforward, I think. But you can’t have “book” too many times in the title and subtitle.

I had it three times, so I cut one out. I said, “Getting Reviews and Using Them to Market Your Book,” and they didn’t even like that. So I had to get rid of it. There are no “books” in the subtitle now, but at least it’s up for pre-order.

Joanna: This is so interesting. With my very first book, I also put up something—this was in the early days when there was only really Amazon in terms of self-publishing. I had something like “From Idea to Amazon” as a subtitle, and they shut that down because, of course, I used their own company name, and I understood that.

The word “book” does seem a little extreme, especially when it’s about book reviews. But this is the point, there are all of these things that are difficult to do.

So let’s get into the content of the book. It is super useful. So authors do obviously talk about book reviews as if they’re one thing, but they’re not all one thing.

What are the different types of book reviews and where can they be used?

Joe: I separate them into three different types of reviews. I’ve seen other marketers separate them into four, but let’s stick with three for now.

The first one in my timeline is blurbs or editorial reviews. Basically, those are like testimonials for your book.

You ask authors or experts in your niche to read an early copy of your book and provide a few sentences of praise for it so that you can use it on your marketing material. That could be putting it on your book cover.

For example, if you get a big notable name, you put J.F. Penn right on the front cover, and bam, that’s helping other readers and browsers see that this could be a book for them.

You can also put it on your Amazon page itself in the editorial review section through Amazon Author Central, or you can do it with Amazon A+ content, which is graphics on your Amazon page. I love those. You can also use it on things like your website and on social media graphics.

One of my favorite things to do is to use it in future pitches. If I reach out to a different review platform and I have a blurb from a notable company who said this book was incredible and gave it a starred review, then that really works wonders for helping that recipient think maybe this book’s quality has already been gate-kept in a way that indie authors aren’t always.

It’s a way for readers to see, “Okay, somebody read this book and somebody said it was good.” So those would be blurbs or editorial reviews.

The second type of review I consider media or trade reviews. Media reviews, to me, are any reviews in the media. I’m going to count social media because it has it in the name. I think as long as you’re getting publicity for it, that is a media review. You can get it on social media. Podcasts aren’t always necessarily a review, but it’s media.

Then trade reviews are from trade review publications—publications that focus only on books, as opposed to bigger media like People that focuses on culture and fashion and all sorts of cool stuff in addition to books. You can use those in different ways too.

The first of which is publicity. Share that link with your audience. Then you can put it on your websites as well. Just like blurbs, you can pull a quote from your larger review and use it with newsletters, websites, and social media. You can also put it in distributor backends like PublishDrive or IngramSpark.

The third type of review is the most common and probably the most difficult: customer reviews on Amazon, Goodreads, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Kobo.

You’re getting those reviews for your product page so every browser that comes sees that you have 150 reviews and can scroll through them to find out what everyday people are saying about it. So that is a totally different strategy than the strategy that you would use for media reviews.

Joanna: That is a great overview.

It’s interesting because I’ve certainly always focused more on customer reviews than anything else because they help the algorithms, they help the social proof, and they help with advertising. It’s very hard to advertise a book with no reviews.

The comments I get from authors now are, “Oh, well, it’s all right for you. You’ve got X number of reviews.” And I’m like, “Yeah, we all start somewhere.” So if someone listening is like, “Okay, I need to get customer reviews on, say, Amazon or Goodreads,”—

What are some tips for getting those customer reviews for new authors with new books who might not have an ARC review team?

Joe: Everybody does start somewhere. It is difficult and time-consuming, most of all. So much in publishing is you’re either paying for it with your dollars or your time, and with customer reviews, so much of it is your time.

My favorite way to get customer reviews is using comp titles. Even if you wrote the most unique book you’ve ever read, other people have written unique books. You should have been reading other books similar to yours while you were writing it or before, but you can check them out now on the bestseller pages on Amazon.

You can find books that are similar to yours, and then find out where those books have been reviewed. If you’re looking for customer reviews, head over to their Amazon page and see if they’ve been published in the last 10 to 15 years.

You don’t want to go too deep, and you probably don’t want to pick books that have a thousand-plus reviews, but maybe in the 100 to 500 review range. You can scroll down to those customer reviews and check out if those reviewers have profiles.

If they have profiles, they might share public social media accounts or websites, and they like to be pitched for free reviews. So that’s definitely one of the best ways that I’ve found to get new customer reviews.

You can also do the same thing with smaller blogs. Smaller blogs can turn into customer reviews pretty often.

If you search a book just like yours and you Google it or you ask ChatGPT to find where they’ve been reviewed and you pay attention to the lesser-known ones, then you can give yourself a pretty good shot of pitching for a customer review from those places. Asking for the blog review first and seeing if it can convert into a customer review.

Then there’s also building a launch team. I know if you are just starting out, you might not have a big list of supporters who you know will be reading your book, but—

You can definitely still build a launch team with your personal connections.

Anybody who you’ve worked with in a writing workshop or something in the past—as long as they’re not Facebook friends with you, so they shouldn’t be really close people to you—you can build launch teams by recognizing who you’ve interacted with in the past and who might want to support you.

Ask them to read an early copy so that they can help out in that first week of publication. I did that with my newsletter a lot. I built a launch team through my newsletter by just creating a form for people to sign up and putting it in my automation sequence. I ended up getting 20-plus people to offer to review the book.

So there are options. They’re all going to take time.

You can ask people inside the book itself with a link to review the book at the very end, right before the back matter.

You can also try paid resources. You can’t pay for customer reviews, but you can pay places like Pubby, where you can read other indie author books and get your book reviewed in return. They work around it in that way.

Then you can try things like BookFunnel, StoryOrigin, and NetGalley. PubNook is another one like Pubby. There are options; it’s just about time.

Joanna: This is so important.

You did say it there, but just to emphasize, you cannot offer something in exchange for a review. So when we’re offering our book to people, we are saying, “Here’s my book.” I always just say, “If you like it and would like to leave a review, I’d really appreciate that.”

Even with our ARC lists, we can’t say, “Here’s a free book in exchange for a review.”

It has to be somebody’s free choice to do a review. And as you said, you can’t pay someone to do a review. There are lots of these services, but that’s not allowed. So as you say, there are ways around it, but we have to be clear.

If I send out an email to my review list, my ARC team, maybe one out of three, or sometimes one in two, will actually leave a review within the period. So even people who’ve signed up to say they will do a review… I guess what I’m saying is don’t get annoyed with people if they don’t.

Everyone has things on their to-do list, haven’t they? So we do have to be careful about how we’re asking for these things.

Joe: Yes, I said it multiple times in my book: really, don’t get annoyed at these people. They’re offering to read your book; that is the best part. So if they leave a review, that is super helpful, but if they disappear, that’s okay too. Don’t chase people and be annoyed. Do not chase them.

Joanna: These lovely book bloggers do all this stuff basically for the love of it, and they just get so many pitches. So, yes, it is one of those sort of frustrating areas, but also really important.

So let’s say, like me, when I was a new author, I did make a lot more effort. There’ll be authors listening who have an email list, they have a lot of books. The more backlist you have, the more difficult it is to try and tell people which book you need reviews on.

What can we do to get consistent reviews over years, especially on backlist books?

Because basically, you need to get reviews regularly in order to keep things sort of moving.

Joe: This is a good problem to have, really. But you do still have to stay on top of it even though you have less time to pitch one-on-one.

My favorite way, the easiest way, is to make sure that there’s a page at the end of the book that includes an actual clickable link. What I like to do is create a redirection link before your book is available. My redirection link is independentbookreview.com/reviewlink. I just use that through WordPress.

Right now, the ebook is not published, so if I were to redirect that link to my ebook review page, it would just be dead. So right now, pre-publication, it’s taking you to a Goodreads review page, which you can have beforehand.

Once the book gets published, you go over to the redirect, you change the link, and then you don’t have to edit the ebook or anything. All the person has to do is click that link when the book is already out.

You should have changed it to the ebook review link, so you don’t have to edit anything. It’s just automatically clickable. So that’s one of my favorite ways to do it, for sure. Then you don’t have to do any work after that.

I also like automation sequences in emails. You can set up a special sign-up page for those who read your book. Let’s say you have a specific link that you send them to in your bio or in the front matter.

They sign up via a specific form that separates them in your email company, and you can have a review request that automatically goes out to whoever signed up for that 30 days after, for example. You already know that these are the people who came from your book. I like automation sequences in emails, for sure.

And then, make it easy to find on your website. All you need is “Contact for review copies.” It’s very simple. Have an email if you want, or a contact box. You can also have a Google Form or a Jotform for people to click and say, “I want to join my ARC team.”

They sign up, put their information in, and you will already have somebody to send it out to the next time your book comes out.

Joanna: I like those, good tips there. So let’s come to the blurbs or the editorial reviews because this has very much been a sort of traditionally published thing. Indies have never really done this as much.

It was interesting that earlier in the year, there was a Simon and Schuster article in The Guardian here in the UK, and it basically said —

“Expecting authors, agents, and editors to secure blurbs can create an incestuous and unmeritocratic literary ecosystem that often rewards connections over talent.”

I thought that was interesting because it seems to suggest that there’s a sort of move against these kinds of blurbs and editorial reviews. So what are your thoughts on when these are useful?

How can we get them in an authentic way rather than just always pitching famous names?

Joe: Yes, I love that article. Somebody said it finally. I feel like it’s so true. Rewarding connections over talent—blurbs are connections.

Stephen King is one of the most prolific blurbers I know. I don’t know if he reads all those books. I would love to ask him, but I just don’t know. It’s about putting their name on your marketing. If they get to put their name on your popular book cover, that’s positive for them.

The thing is that most readers, I would say, don’t really understand the connections part of it in the same way that literary inside-circle people do. I know this, other writers know this, authors know this, that some of these blurbs mean that maybe they share an agent with that author or have the same indie press.

But it’s still about needing more content, and blurbs are content. You can’t be the one who calls your book spectacular, so putting somebody else’s name on there is beneficial.

Connections are good too. I’m a person who runs a book review site. If I see that somebody has a connection with someone as influential as Ta-Nehisi Coates and the book is in the niche, then it gets my brain going.

It’s like, “Oh, maybe they were in the same writing program, maybe they have the same agent, maybe they were in a panel together.” Those are still beneficial. That means that that book could get good publicity, like Ta-Nehisi Coates’s books get good publicity.

I like them. Bookstores and librarians still like them. I understand it from the Simon and Schuster side because their books are already getting into bookstores and libraries. They’re succeeding there. We need as much help as we can get as indies, so I still like them.

Media and trade reviews can also be used as blurbs, so you don’t necessarily have to have these crazy good connections. Although, of course, it’s really helpful to have connections. All you need to do is get reviewed on these other platforms, and you can use them in that way.

In terms of getting them authentically, just having an actually marketable book and story, I think, is the most important. You have to have the recipient believe in that product before they endorse it.

Sometimes blurb writers don’t read every word of every book, and so they want to be able to trust it just from the outset.

So you have to look at it and be like, “Okay, this doesn’t include any problematic tropes in the description, or the cover isn’t already bad.”

There are a lot of things that go into it, but make sure it’s marketable right away, and then just be genuine in your pitch. And maybe read their books before you pitch them.

Joanna: I mean, this is what I was going to say. The worst thing is I get so many pitches all the time, and most of them are completely inappropriate.

They’re just not targeted at me, either my non-fiction or my fiction, and that is the most frustrating thing.

It’s better to send three proper emails to people who you know are a good fit than just scatter-gunning.

Joe: Absolutely. And we can tell too, when you say, “I’ve read your book” or “I read your website,” and then you use a generic example that is in every book, make sure it’s so pointed.

If you’re reaching out to a romance author and you’ve read one of their books, don’t just say, “Oh, the love story was so sweet.” No. Say something like, “Timmy and Sarah in the locker room.” Be so specific.

Make sure that they see it and recognize, “Okay, they actually did read it, and I like that scene too.” So hit their feels a little bit by being really specific.

Joanna: Definitely. I think that’s a really good tip.

It also has to be a good fit with the genre. Reading a book is not like listening to a song. This is not like a three-to-five-minute job. This is reading a book, which for most of us, we have so many books on our TBR list, that taking time out to read a book is significant.

The other thing I guess is the amount of time. I think one of the reasons traditional publishing is much better at this kind of thing is because they have such a long lead time. They might give people six months, whereas most indies are like, “Oh, it comes out next week.” So doing it a lot further in advance, I guess, would be another tip.

Joe: Yes, absolutely.

Joanna: Okay. So then what about influencers and other media? We don’t have any connections with these people. Everybody wants a big-name TikToker to do a review on their book on their channel.

How can we research and pitch influencers?

Joe: I think first, you have to have a good platform. Not necessarily a big follower platform, although it would help, but make sure wherever you’re pitching social media influencers, in particular, that your platform is actually good at curating the content.

If you think of it in terms of a collaboration, they want their stuff to get seen by your people too. So build up your people, make sure that the actual content is likable, lovable, unique, stands out, and is good, shareable content, first of all.

Then, if you are looking for Instagram in particular and you want to DM influencers, you’re going to have to find a way to get them to follow you. I think that would be the biggest piece of it. So seek out not necessarily relationships, but engage with their stuff.

Make sure they see you in the comments. Make sure you are being genuine and trying to form connections rather than just pitching someone cold because if you pitch somebody cold who doesn’t follow you on Instagram, you’re going to get buried in their message requests. So definitely try to work with that first.

It’s going to take a ton of time, but it’s time that maybe, if you’re on social media already, you are already spending there. So I think those things make a big difference over time.

Get started early. Don’t just start a month before publication.

Even if you do start a month before publication, you can still make it work as long as you are forming a connection over time.

In terms of finding those people, you just have to spend time on your platforms. Whichever platform you think would be most beneficial to you, spend time on it. See who is being successful. Search your keywords, search your comp titles, search your categories, and let the TikTok algorithm start to show you more book stuff.

The only way to reach out to and find these people is to find them on those platforms first.

Joanna: So there’s a whole load of people going, “This sounds like a ton of work. I don’t want to be doing this. This is an absolute nightmare.” So what are the lines around paying for reviews? We mentioned that there are some ways around this.

I guess also tell us about Independent Book Review, because I think you have both options, don’t you? So tell us about that.

How can we navigate paying for specific types of book reviews, and what are some good ways to do that, while avoiding the scams?

Joe: Yes. First, it is a time nightmare sometimes. I wrote this book to be the most helpful for authors to recognize what they’re up against and where they should be putting their time, because realistically, there’s just more time than you have to spend getting book reviews.

It’s also about not putting too much pressure on yourself. Recognize how much work this is, but don’t take shortcuts by trying to pay for customer reviews. You cannot do it. You don’t want your account banned; you don’t want the other people’s accounts banned. So make sure you put a full stop there.

Don’t try to get around it by getting Facebook friends or the person who lives in your house to write a review for you. Skip out on all that.

But you can pay for other review services. You can pay people to do research for you. I already mentioned how many minutes you can spend just on Amazon pages trying to find customer reviewers, and if you don’t have that much time because you have to write your next book, you can pay people to do it.

You can find marketers or assistants on Reedsy, which is a good source. Fiverr can have some good assistants as long as you do your vetting. Then you can use services like Pubby, which I still like a lot, because you get to read and help other indie authors and help yourself in the process.

For editorial reviews, which are blurbs that you use in your marketing material from authors, experts, and review companies, you can pay for those.

You can one hundred percent pay for publicity.

When you pay for an editorial review by a book review company like mine, you are making sure your book is read, assessed, and given an honest review by experts—the book reviewers.

You are making sure a reader puts your book on the top of their list, and you’ll end up with a 400-word or more book review from Independent Book Review. It includes a summary and, if applicable, praise and criticism. So it really depends on how they like your book.

The only thing is, you don’t want to pay for too many editorial reviews. You shouldn’t pay every book review company you come across because you’re going to lose a lot of money that way. It can go from $100 to $500 to $600. So make sure you recognize your budget beforehand.

If you feel like you’re spending too much time pitching—if you are pitching too many media and trade reviews and not getting any of them, or only getting one, and you really want to have blurbs by launch day—you can pay companies like mine to give you a chance for a couple of sentences of a blurb. It can help.

I think that you should probably have three to five editorial reviews on your Amazon page before publication, but every author is different, every publisher is different. Although I do think having that validity helps.

Joanna: It can also help your confidence. You mentioned NetGalley before. I think a lot of indie authors have a difficult time with NetGalley because it is so dominated by traditionally published books.

Again, it’s not necessarily the quality, but the reviewers themselves sometimes have a bit of an attitude towards indie books. So I would say that NetGalley can be quite difficult and that it is potentially a better idea, as you say, to focus on other types of reviews.

One thing we do need to cover is, everybody wants reviews, but what if they are one-star or two-star, or even three-star reviews? Obviously, we would love everything to be a five-star or a four-star review. So how do we handle bad reviews?

How do we handle negative reviews in general, whether it is an editorial review or a customer review?

Joe: Yes. First of all, breathe.

For customer reviews in particular, these people are not experts. They’re not editors. Well, I mean, they’re experts in that they read all the time and provide critical analysis of books, but they’re not here trying to improve your book.

They’re speaking to other readers, and they have personal reading experiences. That means that they could be coming at it with bias, with prejudices, with incorrect information.

My favorite way for dealing with negative customer reviews is to just get so many of them that the numbers don’t affect you. Keep chasing them. If you have five negative reviews out of 20, get to 50.

If you took your time with that content, if you really worked hard on it and you don’t even agree with these customers, then the numbers will even out. The more people you get, the more it evens out. So keep working. Don’t stop.

If you feel like the customer review is abusive or it’s about a product that’s not even yours—so they’re reviewing a TV instead of your book—you can hit “report abuse” under an Amazon customer review. They might not necessarily take it down, but you can try.

Don’t respond to them, for sure, no matter where they are—Amazon, Goodreads, or if you had emailed them asking for a review in the past.

With media and trade reviews, if they are negative or mixed, I get a lot of people who are nervous about publishing it on my website if it is a mixed or critical review. I recommend publishing it anyway. I think it’s helpful to be Googleable.

It’s helpful because not every reader that makes it to my site reads every word of every review. Sometimes they scan. It’s easier to scan with your eyes than it is to read every word on a digital screen.

So they might not even read the negative part, or if they do read the criticism, maybe they don’t agree with it and just decide to read the book anyway. It’s just more content for your readers and your audience to engage with.

If there’s a negative review, try to take your emotions and yourself out of it for a little bit. It’s impossible, I can say it all I want, but try. These are not meant to tell you you’re doing something wrong. They’re meant to speak to other readers. That’s it.

You can definitely think about them, but don’t beat yourself up about them. Keep chasing good reviews. Keep working.

Joanna: I also, same as you, consider that you should just drown it by getting more reviews.

Joe: Yes.

Joanna: Say you get 50 reviews and they’re all one-star, then there is something wrong. Either there’s probably something wrong with the book, or you’ve really put it in the wrong place.

So let’s say you’ve put up a book under “Christian Sweet Romance” and it’s full of hardcore violence and swearing and all kinds of other things, then you’ve made a mistake in terms of positioning your book.

So if you’ve positioned it well and it is a good product, then, like you say, you will get some one-star reviews, but you should mainly get alright reviews, I guess.

Joe: Yes, and indie authors sometimes can run into a problem where they haven’t gotten feedback before publishing. It is just so important to actually hear criticism before you get going. Reviews are not the time to get your criticism, even though it does happen.

Sometimes criticism can be actually helpful to learn if you did something wrong. You can fix it with this book if you wanted to edit it again, or you can just fix it in your next one.

Reviews are informative. They’re about your author journey, about how you are presenting your book, if you’re putting it in the right categories. Listen to them. It’s important.

Joanna: That’s interesting you say that because I’ve always paid for professional editing, so I’ve always had feedback and critical feedback before publishing. But you are right, there are a lot of people who don’t do that anymore.

So that would be, I guess, another tip. I still believe in professional editors. I think it’s really important to keep improving our craft, but also for that very reason, as you said, it’s better to have other eyes on your book before publishing.

Now, all of that has been super useful. And of course, you do have various things at Independent Book Review—

Tell us a bit more about Independent Book Review?

Joe: First and foremost, IndependentBookReview.com is a site for readers. So if you’re looking for cool indie books, that’s what I tried to do. I tried to put together book lists, starred reviews, the best in indie publishing. So definitely start reading indie books and come to IndependentBookReview.com for it.

But then for writers also, you can submit your book for free if you’d like. You can buy an editorial review and guarantee it in a certain amount of time. Or you can get group beta reading, which we also offer.

Basically, I have a team of booksellers, librarians, reviewers, and bloggers who will read your book before publication and share what they consider to be the most important takeaways from a reader’s standpoint, not necessarily from an editor’s standpoint. So you can get group beta reading with us too.

My book will be available through there too. Not direct fulfillment, but if you want to go to independentbookreview.com/thetruth, you can just go ahead and find it there.

I also run the Write Indie newsletter, which you’ll find on my website too. Really, just go to IndependentBookReview.com, you’ll figure it out.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Joe. That was great.

Joe: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It means a ton.

The post How To Get More Book Reviews With Joe Walters first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Author: Joanna Penn

/ Jul 13, 2025 / Comments Off on How To Get More Book Reviews With Joe Walters

Why Intentional Storytelling Matters in an Era of AI and Algorithm-Driven Content

These days, it’s easier than ever to write stories that look like stories. I’m talking about stories follow beat sheets, mimic bestselling formulas, and say all the “right” things. But more and more, I see authors tempted to make creative choices based on convenience rather than imagination or integrity. When that happens, we have to ask: are we saying anything real?

Intentional storytelling—the kind that grows from a writer’s unique vision and voice—is at risk of being quietly drowned out by franchise formulas, AI-generated content, and the pressure to produce faster than ever. If you’ve ever felt like you’re just going through the motions instead of creating something that truly matters, you’re not alone. Let’s explore what’s being lost, and what we can reclaim.

In This Article:

What Intentional Storytelling Is Not: Avoiding Formula and Empty Content

How Modern Media Incentivizes Unintentional Choices

These days, I think most people are at least somewhat dissatisfied with the general scope of popular media, particularly movies and TV. Of course, there are stellar exceptions and of course older generations (of which I am suddenly shocked to find I am one!) tend to look back on previous eras of entertainment with no small gloss of nostalgia. But for the past decade, I have looked out onto the entertainment landscape and been increasingly dissatisfied, on a personal level, with what I’m seeing. Although multiple factors play into this (including nothing more than my own evolving perspectives and tastes), I feel the growing trend and temptation away from intentionality is one of the prime culprits.

This is a trend that affects far more than just storytelling. Despite its many benefits—and perhaps its inevitability—the rise of automation, driven by the ever-accelerating pace of life, presents storytellers with ever-growing temptations to take shortcuts. We’ve now reached the point where the most obvious example is the ability to simply have AI write a whole book for you based on nothing more than a premise. But, really, this is just an extreme example at the end of a long line of such shortcuts.

In the interest of identifying what intentional storytelling is, let’s first examine what it is not.

Why “Just Following the Formula” Falls Short

Intentional Storytelling Is Not:

Copy/Paste Beat Sheets – Using structure as a paint-by-numbers formula rather than a flexible framework guided by theme and character. (This is not to say such beat sheets can’t be used for inspiration or troubleshooting, but by themselves, they’re dead forms.)

Formulaic Structures – Plugging characters into a pre-set pattern that forces them to act according to the plot rather than allowing plot to emerge organically from character development.

Soulless On-Demand Content – Prioritizing speed and quantity over resonance, originality, or emotional depth.

Writing to “What Sells” – Chasing trends instead of exploring your unique and authentic voice, interests, and truths.

Fan Service-Driven Plotting – Shaping stories purely to provoke views, applause, or box office returns, at the cost of coherence or meaning.

AI-Generated Brainstorming Replacements – Outsourcing vision, subtext, and originality, especially early in the creative process.

Template-Tweaked Tropes – Recycling familiar stereotypes or plot devices without interrogating their deeper archetypal relevance and resonance.

Focus-Grouped Characters or Themes – Designing stories to appeal broadly instead of deeply.

Although I hope the examples in this list are self-evident, they are also quite general. There will always be instances when some or even all of these things add desirable aspects to a story or offer an author guidance or assistance. However, taken by themselves or without calibration, they all point to the two deepest markers of unintentional writing.

Quite simply, unintentional storytelling is either lazy or fearful.

In the one case, the writer is “filling in the story’s blanks” in some way that fobs off the responsibility of making choices or discovering originality, thus eliminating the need to dig into the depths of one’s own truths. In the other, the writer may be fearful that not following certain trends or using certain tools may endanger relevance and, in some cases, livelihood.

Tools vs. Crutches: Knowing the Difference

This is not to say most of these tools can’t be used to simplify the storytelling process or to help the professional author keep up with the demands of the market. For example, structural beat sheets can be a tremendous learning tool. Producing content and writing “what sells” is, at least to some degree, just part of the devil’s bargain of profitable art. Writing tropes is, to some extent, unavoidable.

It’s less important that examples such as these be avoided altogether and much more important that they be used with intention. To the degree any tool or opportunity is used without intention, it risks weakening the whole. This has always been true for writers, even of something so small as unintentional word choices. But as the ability to craft whole stories with much greater speed and ease becomes more accessible and, frankly, more tempting, it is vital for authors to maintain artistic integrity in every choice they make for their stories—from the words to the tools to the characters to the plot.

What Is Intentional Storytelling? Defining Purposeful, Authentic Narrative Craft

At its simplest, intentional storytelling is paying attention to everything. It is about becoming aware of every choice you are making for your story—from plot, theme, and characters to the color of your protagonist’s dress or the name of her dog. It’s about choosing narrators on purpose and for a reason. It’s about vetting settings. It’s about honing word choice to perfection.

Why? Some of those things—like plot and theme—obviously matter, since they are your story. But why does something as inconsequential as a color or a random setting really matter?

What Makes Details Matter: Cohesion and Resonance

They matter for two reasons: cohesion and resonance.

  • Cohesion is about ensuring every piece of a story is part of a greater unified whole.
  • Resonance is about the effect of that whole: how every small piece sings together to create an effect bigger than itself—a note of magic that resonates to the audience as a feeling, a sense, something supra-linguistic communicated beyond words or images.

How Subtext Reflects the Integrity of a Story

Ultimately, what we’re talking about is the creation of subtext. Stories are subtext. The stories that truly work—the stories that stay with you long after you finish them—are stories in which the subtext worked. And the subtext only works when the context is contrived of intentional choices.

It’s important not to confuse “intentional” with “conscious.” Although consciousness always brings intention, intention exists beyond consciousness. Although we often speak of brainstorming stories, stories are always first and foremost an act of dreaming—an act of the subconscious, the imaginal self, the symbolic mind.

What AI Can’t Do for You (Unless You Know Yourself First)

When it comes to AI, the subject is certainly complex. As someone who makes a living from creative work, I understand firsthand why AI feels threatening. The landscape of my own livelihood has been impacted significantly these past few years, raising many anxieties about an unknown future. In the spirit of learning about something before forming opinions about it, this year I’ve been experimenting with it in many different ways, particularly looking into how it can help me on the business end of things (i.e., left-brain pursuits such as SEO, research, business brainstorming, and marketing copy) and have often found it helpful. However, my chief concern with its advent is that in relying on it for right-brain activities, it may easily interrupt our dreaming selves and, indeed, do too much of our dreaming for us.

To know the difference requires, first, a keen attention to one’s own imaginal workings and, second, a perhaps even keener attention on the intention of the choices we make for our stories, the origins of those choices, and above all their resonance with ourselves—or what I have always called our “story sense.” This is that deep and true part of ourselves—intuition, sixth sense, gut feeling, subconscious—that knows when something is ours or not—when something is true for us or not.

As you seek intentional storytelling, you can move beyond vigilance and awareness to a deeper intimacy with your own personal truths and symbols. Although left-brained, logic-based brainstorming remains a helpful process for most of us, it cannot replace the right-brained raw creativity of simply imagining. I use a process called dreamzoning to intentionally shut off my logical brain and go deep into my imagination. I’ve rather come to feel that this act of dreamzoning is one of the most subversive approaches an author can take in these times. (Although I offer guided meditations to help with this process, you need nothing more than a little time alone to stare into space.)

Ultimately, storytelling with intention is nothing more than storytelling with honesty, integrity, discipline, and bravery. It begins when we first look deeply into ourselves and write with honesty what is there—no matter how unformed, ill-formed, frighteningly personal, vulnerable, or imperfect—rather than simply mirroring back what we see in others’ stories.

We follow that with the integrity—the wholeness, the cohesion—of making choices that align with those depths, with what feels right for us, with what serves to produce a story that has its own integrity, its own wholeness.

Then comes the discipline of staying with it, even when it’s hard, even when it seems there must be an easier way, a more fun way, a more profitable way, a less scary way. Staying in service to our own integrity is the surest path to any of these things. But even when it seems anything but, we must keep asking the questions that tell if we are indeed staying true to ourselves, our visions, and our stories—not our egos’ stories, but our deepest stories.

And then we face it all with courage—because there is no other way. Storytelling—real, true storytelling (okay, honestly some fake storytelling too) is the most frightening thing in the world. To write with truth requires the incredible vulnerability of feeling deeply into our most primordial selves. To then write well requires the supreme and often painful effort of teaching our brains new pathways, organizing our unruly and chthonic dreams into the straight line of language and communication.

If we fail from time to time in our intentionality with every piece and moment of our stories, it is little wonder. In the end, the only thing that matters is that we keep coming back to the deepest and most honest parts of what we are trying to create and share.

Why Intentional Storytelling Matters More Than Ever in an AI-Driven Content World

Intentional storytelling has always mattered. But I write this post now because I feel it is more important than ever. Storytelling is the soul of culture, and perhaps as writers some of us have lost our souls a bit lately. The demands of content creation can make it easy to lose touch with the inner muse. Tools like AI can make this slide even more tempting. However, any assistance automated tools render us (in any aspect of life) can rob us of intentionality only insofar as we are out of touch with our own deep knowing and imagining.

How the Creative Landscape Is Changing

Many authors these days are asking themselves the hard questions. As the landscape of the artistic world—to say nothing of the world at large—changes so dizzyingly around us, it becomes ever more important for us to ask these questions. All humans are innately storytellers. But those of us who purport to shape and share our stories through the life-changing portals that are books and movies—perhaps bear a somewhat greater responsibility.

This is not a challenge to step away from the workings of modern life, but rather a challenge to experiment with every moment, to test and try and see and respond—to evolve when evolution is the truest and to stand fast when standing is truest—to allow ourselves the spontenaiety of each moment rather than the dogma of easy answers or quick fixes.

Why the Story Still Starts With You

Intentionality is not, nor ever will be, the easiest path for writers to take. But, truly, storytelling was never meant to be easy. As writers, it is our special sleight of hand that allows us to open portals into the depths of life under the guise of adventure and romance and mystery. There’s no such thing as “just” a story. That’s the trick. That’s the magic. But it only works when we, as storytellers and magicians, are in deep service to the integrity of the story itself.

Two Questions to Guide Every Writing Decision

All you have to do is keep asking yourself these two questions:

  1. Why? Why did I make this choice? Why did I put this in my story? Is it the easiest answer—or is it deep and true?
  2. How can I go deeper? How can I write something that is more honest, more real, more of my dreaming self?

However you answer those questions—whether with certainty or with more questions—they are the beginning of a deeper relationship with your craft. Intentional storytelling isn’t a destination; it’s a continual practice of listening inward, trusting your creative instincts, and honoring the story that wants to be told through you. The path may not always be easy, but it is always worth walking one meaningful, intentional choice at a time.

In Summary

Intentional storytelling isn’t about rejecting tools or structure. It’s about using them with awareness, discernment, and, above all, honesty. In a time when it’s never been easier to churn out content that looks like a story, the real work of writing lies in remembering why we create in the first place. Every story worth telling begins not with trends or formulae, but with the deep, sometimes uncomfortable truths we carry inside ourselves.

To write with intention is to choose meaning over ease, depth over noise, and wholeness over quick results. It’s an act of quiet rebellion in a culture of speed and automation. We honor the sacred nature of story by treating it, not as a product to be packaged, but as a portal to something true, resonant, and lasting.

Key Takeaways on Intentional Storytelling:

  • Intentional storytelling means making every creative choice with honesty, integrity, discipline, and courage.
  • Tools like beat sheets and AI must be used with discernment and integrity.
  • The rise of algorithm-driven content makes it more important than ever to return to the source: your own imagination, values, and story sense.
  • Asking “Why?” and “How can I go deeper?” can reconnect you to authentic, resonant storytelling.

Want More?

If you’re feeling the pull to reconnect with your deeper creative self—to get out of your head and back into your story’s heart—my Archetypal Character Guided Meditations can help. I designed these immersive sessions to support you in finding the “dreamzone”: that quiet, intentional space where imagination flows freely, unshaped by algorithms or outside noise. In these times when technology offers us faster answers, my idea is for these meditations offer a return to deep, slow creativity. You can find them in my shop!

Go on the journey with your characters! Check out the Archetypal Character Guided Meditations.

Wordplayers, tell me your opinions! What does intentional storytelling mean to you—and where in your own writing process do you sometimes feel most tempted to trade depth for ease? Tell me in the comments!

Click the “Play” button to Listen to Audio Version (or subscribe to the Helping Writers Become Authors podcast in Apple Podcast, Amazon Music, or Spotify).

___

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The post Why Intentional Storytelling Matters in an Era of AI and Algorithm-Driven Content appeared first on Helping Writers Become Authors.

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Author: K.M. Weiland | @KMWeiland

/ Jul 07, 2025 / Comments Off on Why Intentional Storytelling Matters in an Era of AI and Algorithm-Driven Content

Crafting Stories, Finding Readers And Selling Direct With Ines Johnson

Have you ever dreamed of turning a passion for storytelling into a profitable, long-term career? How do you build multiple successful author brands without burning out? What marketing strategies actually work in today’s fast-changing industry? Ines Johnson shares her journey and the secrets to her success.

In the intro, 5 phases of an author business [Becca Syme]; Lessons from writing every day for two decades [Ryan Holiday]; What the First AI Copyright Ruling Means for Authors [ALLi Podcast];

Plus, Lichfield Cathedral; The Buried and the Drowned Short Story Collection; and 50% off all my JFPenn ebooks and audiobooks and digital bundles for July 25.  

Write and format stunning books with Atticus. Create professional print books and eBooks easily with the all-in-one book writing software. Try it out at Atticus.io

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Ines Johnson is a romance author with over a hundred books spanning paranormal, urban fantasy, contemporary, and erotica, as well as sweet romance under another pen name.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

  • From funk band upbringing to TV, teaching and writing
  • Writing faster as a trained screenwriter
  • Staying within your lane — depending on your goals
  • The business of writing, and planning income and progress
  • AIDA for marketing — Attention, Interest, Desire, Action
  • Kickstarter for PageTurner Planning
  • Selling direct and the experience you bring to readers
  • The joys of Romancelandia

You can find Ines at InesWrites.com or InesWrites.substack.com.

Transcript of Interview with Ines Johnson

Joanna: Ines Johnson is a romance author with over a hundred books spanning paranormal, urban fantasy, contemporary, and erotica, as well as sweet romance under another pen name. Welcome to the show, Ines.

Ines: Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: I’m excited to talk to you today. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Ines: I grew up in a funk band; that’s always my truth. My father was the bass player, and one of my formative memories was of him explaining music composition to me.

He explained how the keyboard had its part and would tell a story, the drums had a part and would tell a story, and then finally the vocalists came on and they told a different story.

He showed me how all of these worked together to make the story complete, to be the characters. It was from that moment I knew I was supposed to be in storytelling. I thought I was going to be a singer, but my daddy said, “Oh, sweetie, no, you’re not going to be a singer.”

So I started first in television, and then I found my way into novel writing. I worked in cable television for a number of years for National Geographic Television, on the Explorer show, which was before they had a channel. I loved that; we met so many fascinating people from all around the world.

Then I started to work in children’s television. While I was working in children’s television, I was also an avid reader, which I have been since I was very young.

There are pictures of my youngest aunt corralling me and my cousins off the city bus and into the library. Going to the library and being able to take books home was the best thing ever.

But my godmother, who lived a few blocks up the street, had a pantry where you’re supposed to keep boxes of pasta and cans of beans. She didn’t have that. Instead, she had all these teeny tiny little Harlequins and Silhouettes; that was my second library.

She said I could take and read whatever I wanted, and I did. She didn’t try to censor me because, back then, the love scene was when the waves would crash!

I read those books and it became an absolute addiction for me, and it stayed with me even when I was working in television. When I went on to work in children’s television, I was reading Twilight in between reading scripts for the show.

The writing bug bit me. I would be writing screenplays in Final Draft, then switch over to Word or eventually Scrivener and work on a novel. It took me years for that first novel to be recognizable as a piece of literature. It has not seen the light of day, but that was fine.

After the first one, I wrote the next one in a year, the next in six months, the next in three months, and now I’m a whole lot faster than that. But I always like to preface my “speed” with the fact that I’m a trained screenwriter. We would do 13 scripts per season, two seasons per year. That’s a normal pace for me.

My brain doesn’t think it’s supposed to take a year or more to write a novel. No, you need to have this full script, this part of the story, done in the time you have.

Joanna: That is really interesting. I think people who come from screenwriting or journalism are fast writers because they’re used to deadlines. It’s a job, you do the work, and there are the words. I get that.

When did you first decide to self-publish?

Ines: I first self-published in December 2014. I published a three-part serial, as it was really popular to do serial books back then. It was the era of KU 1.0, where you got paid the same no matter how long or short the book was.

That worked for me because that’s how my mind is; I don’t think in terms of a feature film, I think in episodes. So I started to write these shorter stories, and they did well, and then I just wrote more and more.

At the time, I only wrote romance, but I didn’t understand genres or tropes. I started writing a dystopian, then a sci-fi, then a paranormal. I was going all over the place, and each time I was building a new audience that wouldn’t follow to the next genre.

The people that read the dystopian were not interested in the contemporary, and so on. It didn’t make sense to me until other authors pulled me up by my bootstraps and said, “Girlfriend, let me give you some advice.”

That’s the beautiful thing about the romance author community. They told me,

“It’s fantastic that you keep finding an audience, but you want to try to retain them. One of the ways to do that is to pick a lane and stay in it.”

I was crisscrossing too many lanes on the highway to keep my readers.

That’s when I decided pen names were for me because I didn’t want to limit myself, so I just made more than one.

Joanna: I know that people don’t cross over and it’s so weird, isn’t it? Because I think many writers, myself included, read so many different genres. So I don’t really understand people who only read one.

How have the pen names worked for you and how do you keep multiple names going?

Ines: For the folks that are listening, I think the vast majority of readers probably read a handful of books a year. Indies aren’t focused on the masses like that. We’re very focused on the ‘whale readers,’ the ones that read a book a day. I’m a whale reader; I read one to two books a day.

A lot of these whale readers are often mood readers, so you don’t necessarily have to pick a lane and stay in it forever. For a period of time, they may only want one specific thing. Right now, I’m in a contemporary mood. Next week I’ll be in a historical mood, and after that, I might be in a sci-fi mood.

However, if you want a faster route to profitability, picking a lane is a strategy that works. It’s just a strategy, and it’s a strategy that works if you’re looking at profitability.

If you are an artist, then you don’t have to listen to this advice. You have to determine what you want out of your career, and that’s the lane you need to pick.

If your goal requires you to be a very focused genre writer, then you do that.

If you are a different kind of writer and you want to write across various spectrums, you just need to set your goals accordingly.

Find the right readers, and then stay on your beautiful highway.

Joanna: Apart from focus, what are the other mistakes that either you’ve made yourself or that you see others make?

Ines: The main mistake I see… well, one person’s mistake can be another person’s boon. I feel that if you understand who you are, what you want, and what your goals are, you make fewer mistakes. They just become opportunities.

For me, you are not going to see me talking about politics in my books. I’m trying to escape it as much as I possibly can. But I see other authors who embrace it wholeheartedly, and the readers love them for it.

I see authors who post very personal things on social media. I am not that girl. I keep a lot of things close to my chest. You’ll feel like you know me, but you couldn’t tell a lot of actual facts about me after a conversation.

I don’t suffer from that because I know what my limits are. For other authors, that’s a mistake for them because they go too far. I really think it becomes about understanding who you are and what you want because this industry changes so fast you will get whiplash.

The thing that stays the same is you, your goals, and why you’re doing this. If you can keep that close to your chest, any potential mistake becomes an opportunity that you can really see and dig deep into to make the best of it.

Joanna: You mentioned you started in KU, but now you are selling direct as well as publishing wide. A lot of people think all romance authors are just KU authors.

Tell us about selling direct and wide.

Ines: I started in KU because I didn’t understand how to upload to the other retailers. Eventually, I learned, but I’m always looking at my goals, and my pen names have different goals.

My Ines Johnson pen name mostly writes paranormal and fantasy. My Shanae Johnson pen name is the queen of wholesome romance. She sticks to her lane. Those are my two main pen names.

Shanae can be wide because if you look on Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Google Play, you can see genres like contemporary western, military, and small-town romance. Those are universal.

Genres like paranormal romance, paranormal women’s fiction, and reverse harem were born on Amazon. Those specific categories were born there.

So I’m always watching not only what the industry is doing but what the readers are doing and where they are.

Shanae could go into KU with her clean and wholesome romance, but why, when there are readers everywhere? Ines could come out of KU, but why, when the readers for her genres are concentrated right there?

And yes, I am selling direct.

I sell more print books direct than I do on Amazon, and the margins are better for me there.

When you’re selling direct, you have to think about how you are different.

Amazon can’t do everything. Amazon can’t sell you the ebook, the audiobook, the print book, a special edition, and a swag pack all in one bundle.

For one Kickstarter I did for a spicy romance, I sold the ebook, the print book, and the audiobook. I also sold a webinar. Inside the book, there were some spicy scenes that dealt with rope play, so I got an expert to come on and give my readers a special demonstration, and they all got some rope. You can’t do that on Amazon.

You can give a completely different experience. You can have tea parties. You can build a book box with all kinds of amazing goodies. A friend of mine who’s really crafty made objects for her readers to go with the book. You can’t do that on Amazon.

Direct is an experience. It’s about bundles and creating an experience you can give your readers.

Joanna: You’ve got a Kickstarter campaign coming for Page Turner Planning.

Tell us about that and any tips for people who want to run a Kickstarter.

Ines: You really have to know yourself, your why, and your lane.

My number one strength on the CliftonStrengths chart is discipline. I like doing the same thing over and over again. My number two strength is achiever. I have to achieve; I have to evolve; I have to win something new. For the longest time, those two just clashed.

I’m a planner. Every day I get up—and I have a number of journals—every day, I get up and I record my data. It costs me about $2,500 to $3,000 a month to cover my living expenses, which is about $80 a day.

So I sit down in my little journal and I go through and check the dashboards to see how much I’ve earned, and I write the numbers down. I’m not just writing it down from Amazon because I’m wide, so I write all the numbers down.

I don’t put it in a spreadsheet; I just write them down, and that calms my mind. It reminds me, “Yes, you can do this self-employed thing. You can do this small business thing. You are fine. You have made the money to cover your expenses. You’re good. Now, go have fun.” And that’s where my muse starts to write the book.

When I’m on retreats, people look over my shoulder and ask me about my planners. I record my word count, what’s going on in the story… I have tons of different journals for all this information. It’s really anti-anxiety for me.

Two years ago, I started a little mastermind where I was showing people how to write with pacing, how I marketed, and all the prep work I did before the book was even out—how I set up my Instagram, my website, my newsletter.

I also knew I needed to go to the bank and get a DBA, which became an LLC, then maybe an S Corp. Because I have a couple of degrees in education, I figured out how to deliver the information in a logical sequence.

I would talk to them once a week about what they should be thinking about in their writing, their business, their branding, and their marketing.

As I was supposed to be writing Page Retention, the second book in my Page Turner series, I looked back at all this content from the mastermind—more than 52 weeks’ worth—and said, “This is a book.”

I turned that two-year-long experiment of helping people write their book, build their business, and market themselves into a planner. And that’s Page Turner Planning.

Joanna: That’s really useful.

How does a Kickstarter work? Why is the pre-launch page so important?

Ines: Kickstarter says you’re going to pull some people from your audience, but you’re going to pull a lot of new people to you. These new people don’t know you, so you have to introduce yourself and build trust.

I’m asking you for money for something that came from my brain. In this instance, it’s a product that will benefit you, but you don’t know me. I could be making all this stuff up.

So the pre-launch page is to give you sneak peeks and to build trust. Once you have those things, people are more likely to come on board and give you a try.

Joanna: What other things did you learn from your past Kickstarters that might help other people?

Ines: The first thing is fear. I was terrified to run my first Kickstarter. We’re both introverts who probably like to sit in our houses and write our books. I don’t like to put my business out there, but when you do something like Kickstarter, you’re putting your business out there for everyone to see, whether it succeeds or fails.

My very first Kickstarter was with my sweet pen name, Shanae Johnson, who has a huge audience. I got 30 backers. I limped my way to funding that Kickstarter and was all kinds of confused. I was very hesitant to do a second one. I had to do a lot of mindset work before I did the Page Turner Pacing Kickstarter.

The best thing I did was talking about it before it launched. These people didn’t know me. I had to show them that I knew what I was talking about first. Once people saw that and I was giving them free tidbits to try, that’s what worked.

Having tiers where they could just try something out and see… over 700 people backed that Kickstarter, Joanna. I’m still breathless over it. I had to have a moment to convince them, or maybe I convinced their friends, that I know what I’m talking about and that I’m really here to help.

Joanna: In terms of book marketing, what have you kept doing since 2014, and what have you changed?

Ines: I get these bursts of energy where I figure something out and I just want to tell everybody, because I truly want us all to win. So when you see me showing up on Instagram or TikTok, it’s because I figured something out and I want to show everybody. But then once I’ve told you, I go away.

I’m always writing. You will not find me without a piece of paper and a pen. So things like Substack really work for me because I have so much to write about on the nonfiction side.

In terms of marketing — 

My number one piece of marketing advice is to find one new reader every single day.

I might find them using an AMS ad, a Facebook ad, an Instagram post, or at a book signing. Every day, I’m looking for just one new reader.

To distill what I learned in television, we used a formula called AIDA: Attention, Interest, Desire, and Action. That’s really what marketing is to me.

How are you going to get people’s attention?

You could use a startling statement, music, or color theory. We learned so much psychology on how to keep you in your seat.

Then, interest starts the storytelling bit of your advertising. Then you play on people’s desires—we mostly deal with emotional desires. And finally, you have to tell them to act with a call to action. That’s what marketing boils down to, whether you’re on TikTok, Instagram, or hand-selling in person.

Joanna: What has stayed the same? I still have an email list, which has been the core.

Do you think Substack has replaced email marketing for you?

Ines: My Substack is purely nonfiction, but I email my fiction list every week.

The thing that has stayed the same for me is consistency. I consistently publish. I’m consistently telling stories. I’m consistently talking to my audience.

I don’t stop. I’m consistently promoting.

Things in this industry change, but the part of you that doesn’t change is your goal to succeed. You just have to change how you’re going to succeed based upon what is moving and shaking in the industry. It’s that consistency and just showing up and using AIDA.

Joanna: How much is paid advertising a part of your marketing strategy?

Ines: It’s very much a part of my marketing strategy. I am always looking for where the readers are. If you tell me I can go on Facebook, where there are a lot of readers who read the books I write, and all I have to do is pay some money to talk to them, I’m going to pay. How else am I going to find them? It gets harder.

I’m thankful for paid advertising. Yes, I’m going to do social media. Yes, I’m going to do paid cost-per-click marketing. Yes, I’m going to do paid newsletters. Yes, I’m going to purchase a table at a signing event because guess who’s there? The readers.

My dad always says it takes money to make money, so I came into this business knowing that I was going to have to spend. I have my thresholds and I know when it’s not worth it, but I don’t think we can expect to come into a business and just start making money for free.

Joanna: You’ve been doing this for over a decade and have seen people leave the industry.

Why are you still here and still so upbeat?

Ines: I’m unemployable, Joanna!

But it really goes back to my dad and that lesson I learned about how story works. I feel that’s why I succeeded: because I understand how story works at a granular level. That’s what I try to tell people.

It’s because I studied the art form that I so love, and I never stop studying. I feel like every book I write is me practicing a new lesson. What am I going to study today?

Maybe I watched a television show and they did something with an unreliable narrator, and I think, “I want to try that.” I will break that down, looking for the structure, the way that I was taught to look in screenwriting, and then I will write that book.

I think I’m still here because I understood structure and I’m a consistent, permanent student of the structure of story.

Also business. I came from corporate television—National Geographic, Discovery Channel—so I always understood that I will not be a success unless I find the audience and get my product in front of them.

Joanna: Let’s come back to romance. It still feels like there’s some kind of stigma in the mainstream.

What do you say to authors who love romance but are scared of writing it because of what people might say?

Ines: Joanna, this is when my feral Gen X is about to come out. Seriously, if you are afraid, I don’t think you should do it.

If you don’t believe in “feel the fear and do it anyway,” then don’t do it. Do something else, because the romance readers will smell it on you. We are also feral creatures.

I so often forget that there is a stigma outside of Romancelandia because the party inside is so loud, it’s on and popping, and we’re all cheering each other on. We don’t come outside a lot, and when we do, we’re like, “Why are you guys out here? Come inside, it’s great in here!”

So, if you are not in the Romancelandia community, get yourself there. But if, after you see what it’s like, you’re still scared, don’t do it. That’s fine. You do not have to write romance. You can write something with a romantic element, and that might do better for you.

Joanna: If someone wants to come inside Romancelandia, how do they do that?

Ines: If you have a romance bookstore in your area, go. I just did my first trip to The Ripped Bodice in New York, and when I walked in those doors, I was like, “Oh, I’m home.” That’s what it feels like.

Go to the romance section of your library; you’ll find a friend. Go to the romance section of your bookstore; trust me, you will find a friend. I don’t know what it is about the people in this world, but as soon as we see you next to us and you pick up a book, we have something to say! “Girl, not that one. You need to read this one instead!”

If that’s not enough, or if you don’t have a bookstore with a romance section, look up romance conferences. Look up Romance Writers of America; even though they’ve struggled, there are still pockets of groups and chapters that have broken off that want to talk to you and will welcome you inside.

I really feel like it’s like when you get a new car and all of a sudden you see your car everywhere on the road. If you speak romance into the world and say you want a romance book sister, she will find you.

Joanna: We are out of time.

Where can people find you and your books and your Kickstarter online?

Ines: If you are an author, you’ll want to go and read my Substack. I’ve got tons of content there, so go to ineswrites.substack.com.

If you want to read any of my books, you can go to ineswrites.com for the paranormal and fantasy—all spicy, so gird your loins! If you want to read something clean and wholesome that you can share with your mom or your auntie, then you’ll go to shanaejohnson.com.

The Kickstarter should be findable on Substack or my site, but the direct link is ineswrites.com/kickstarter for the Page Turner Planning campaign.

Joanna: Thank you so much for your time, Ines. That was great.

Ines: Thank you so much.

The post Crafting Stories, Finding Readers And Selling Direct With Ines Johnson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Author: Joanna Penn

/ Jul 06, 2025 / Comments Off on Crafting Stories, Finding Readers And Selling Direct With Ines Johnson

The Secret to Writing Witty Characters (Without Trying So Hard)

There’s nothing like a sharp-tongued, quick-witted character to light up a scene—especially when the stakes are high or the tone is dark. From sarcastic sidekicks to roguish heroes, witty characters often steal the show. But when the humor feels forced or out of character, it can suck the life right out of a story. So why does some wit dazzle while other attempts fall painfully flat?

In the last few years, there have been a rash of movies (mostly summer blockbusters) that try really hard to live up to the witty legacies of films such as Indiana Jones and the original Star Wars, only to fall sadly short.

Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1980), 20th Century Fox.

Why is this?

Often, it isn’t the jokes that are to blame. Words that might have been hilarious coming out of the mouth of Han Solo fall flat on their faces coming out of the mouths of other characters.

So what’s the difference?

In a nutshell: character.

The secret to pulling off a witty character is putting the emphasis not on the wit itself, but on the character.

As we’re planning or writing our stories, it’s easy to say, “You know, it would be fun to have a witty character. A wisecracking hero or a bumbling sidekick.” So we stick ‘em in. But our immediate problem with this decision is that we may be trying to force the humor, instead of allowing it to emerge organically from the character.

Humor grows all the more funny in context. And when that context is a fully developed personality, the humor is then able to offer not just a bigger laugh, but a deeper understanding of both the character and the plot.

If your characters are nothing more than smart mouths, readers will instantly perceive they’re cardboard cutouts, stuck in to garner a quick laugh. Some readers will forgive you for this, particularly if you do indeed happen to be able to write hilarious dialogue. But others may resent it as a gimmick and go looking for something that manages to combine both entertainment and depth.

When you craft characters who are fully realized—whose humor springs from their worldviews, flaws, and relationships—that’s when the wit lands with authenticity and impact. Humor can become more than a joke; it can be an insight. So next time you write a snappy one-liner, ask yourself: is it something this character would say, or something you wish someone would say? Instead of just sticking witty words in characters’ mouths, create complete personalities from whom the wit can flow realistically, organically, and engagingly

For more on writing authentic humor, see these posts:

Wordplayers, tell me your opinions! What’s your best advice for writing witty characters? Who is a favorite example of one done right in fiction? Tell me in the comments!

The post The Secret to Writing Witty Characters (Without Trying So Hard) appeared first on Helping Writers Become Authors.

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Author: K.M. Weiland | @KMWeiland

/ Jun 30, 2025 / Comments Off on The Secret to Writing Witty Characters (Without Trying So Hard)

Writing For Audio First With Jules Horne

How is the rise of AI changing the world of audiobooks for authors and narrators? Can a synthetic voice ever capture the nuance of human performance, and what does it mean to write for the ear, not just the eye? Jules Horne talks about the seismic shifts in the audiobook industry and how you can adapt your writing process for an audio-first world.

In the intro, using AI tools in the editing business [Words to Write By Podcast]; Fair use ruling for generative AI [BBC; Publishers Weekly; Alicia Wright interview]; I’m also on various podcasts talking about author branding, longevity, and creating over the long term [Writing With Purpose; The Authors Lounge; Bookfunnel Podcast].

Plus, Pèlerinage: Seule sur trois chemins anciens pour réinventer ma vie; Traveling by Cruise Ship on Books and Travel, my Kickstarter for short story collection, The Buried and the Drowned.

draft2digital

Today’s show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Jules Horne is a Scottish playwright, radio dramatist, poet, and fiction writer. She also writes nonfiction for authors, including the very useful Writing for Audiobooks.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

  • The biggest industry shifts in audio, including the move to subscription models like Spotify and the impact of AI narration.
  • An honest assessment of the quality of AI voices—what are the ‘tells’ and how quickly are they improving?
  • Practical tips for adapting your nonfiction book for audio, from handling visuals and numbers to structuring for listener retention.
  • How to write fiction with an “audio-first” mindset, focusing on sentence length, dialogue tags, and the rhythm of your prose.
  • The potential for hybrid and multicast productions using a mix of human and AI voices.
  • Marketing and selling your audiobooks, including direct sales vs. platform exclusives.

You can find Jules at method-writing.com.

Transcript of Interview with Jules Horne

Joanna: Jules Horne is a Scottish playwright, radio dramatist, poet, and fiction writer. She also writes nonfiction for authors, including the very useful Writing for Audiobooks. Welcome back to the show, Jules.

Jules: Hello, Joanna. Thanks very much for having me. It’s great to be here.

Joanna: It’s great to have you back. It was 2019 when you were last on the show. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and aspects of audio and performance.

Jules: Audio was never really a big thing in my life, but I did start writing very small and did a bit of, I guess, very junior theatre. When I studied literature at university, I got totally put off because it was so daunting.

I got into playwriting when a theatre company came to our local area and offered engagement workshops. That eventually led to some writing commissions. I ended up writing some stage plays and a few BBC radio dramas, which was really lovely to do.

I also worked in radio news writing and presenting for a while, so I did a bit of recording voice and writing for voice. I did a lot of presenting, so you kind of got a real feel for the flow of audio.

I loved editing different people’s voices; that was really fun, and the techie side. I think that led to an interest in audio first and also a real feel for voices in general and editing. It’s been a long-term interest of mine.

Joanna: As I mentioned, you were on the show in 2019 when we talked about writing for audiobooks, and you’ve updated the book since then. I wanted to come back to it because things have really changed over the last five and a half years.

What are some of the biggest industry shifts in terms of audiobook growth, publishing, subscription platforms, and technology changes?

Jules: It’s been astonishing; it’s just been extraordinary what’s happened in the last few years. We thought it was fast then, but what’s happened very recently has just been whoosh.

For many years, Audible and ACX were the dominant distribution platforms, with such a monopoly. All that time, audiobooks have been growing really, really strongly as a publishing niche with high growth and new markets taking off. It’s still really going strong.

I think one of the big things that’s changed is it has moved from one-off purchases to subscription models, similar to Netflix or Prime for TV and films. That’s been for a good few years now.

Then Spotify launched its audiobook tier in 2023, which was a bit of a game changer. It puts audiobooks alongside music and podcasts, and it really widens the audience.

Of course, that comes along with some worries for authors because Spotify hasn’t been great for musicians, with tiny royalties there. So, time will tell how that plays out.

Then of course, there’s AI, which is affecting every kind of sector. It has been expected for a while that Amazon would open the gates to AI voices, and now that’s happened. You can very simply upload your ebook as usual and then add an audiobook with virtual voices.

That’s bound to have a major impact on publishing and, of course, on livelihoods for audiobook narrators and actors. So, that’s a huge development in this last while.

Joanna: Any technological change has a lot of benefits and a lot of downsides. You mentioned Spotify and the worries over potential royalties, but from my personal perspective, I often think about these places as, yes, some income, but also marketing and reaching a much wider audience.

As a listener myself, I moved over to Spotify for podcast and music listening years ago, and then I moved my audiobook listening over. Now I wouldn’t go back because I listen quite differently and use the Spotify search engine and their algorithm.

It’s like we are meeting listeners where they are.

Yes, there are some good things and some bad things, but you can’t stop the change.

Jules: Absolutely. I think the widening of listenership and different people suddenly being introduced to your books in ways they wouldn’t have before is huge for authors. So, yes, definitely one to consider.

Joanna: We’re in a time where a lot of people say, “For some reason, I don’t read,” as if that’s something to be proud of. But a lot of people do listen. A lot of people listen in the car, when they’re exercising, or whatever they’re doing. I listen when I’m out walking.

I think having our books in audio is so important, and yet it has been very expensive, hasn’t it?

So again, the trade-off is that for a lot of authors, it’s not human or AI; it’s AI or nothing because they couldn’t have afforded it.

Jules: That’s right, and I think the thing with reading is really interesting too because more and more people are recognizing listening as a form of reading. The attitude to it being “just listening” is changing as well. People are imbibing books in different ways now.

The cost of AI is really approachable, and if that’s the only option, then that’s one that authors will definitely be considering. Particularly with KDP, where they’ve made it such an integral part of the overall indie publishing experience.

They’ve made it really simple to just upload, continue, and then you can preview some voices and try it out. You can try it out with different voices. It is quite extraordinary, and I think a lot of authors will probably choose that route.

Joanna: Just to timestamp this interview, we’re in the middle of June 2025. Just last week, I got an email from ACX with a survey. It included a whole load of questions around what I might want from AI voices.

It feels like even though the virtual voice is through the KDP dashboard and is quite simple, there might be something else on the horizon. Did you get that or what do you think?

Jules: I didn’t get that one. What were the questions? That’s really curious.

Joanna: They were things like, “Here’s a list of things that you might be interested in. Rate them in order of what you want.” And one of them would have been a lot more control of the text and the audio quality and sales platforms, like how to do much more marketing of things.

It was really interesting because I was like, “Oh, this seems very, very positive for the future.”

Jules: Yeah, that’s a really interesting one too, because the marketing side with ACX and Audible has been really difficult for authors, hasn’t it? You can’t really, unless you’re a vendor on Amazon, advertise your books, and you can’t price them. These kinds of things.

So I wonder if that’s maybe in the offering too. That would be great.

Joanna: People seem to criticize the AI voices, for example, and say, “Oh, well they’re not very good.” And it’s like, well, they’re a lot better than they were six months ago, and in six months’ time, they’re going to be even better.

I wanted to ask you about this because you are very experienced in all this different voice stuff, different elements of human voice performance. So I think your ear is probably very attuned.

Honestly, what do you think about some of the quality of these AI-narrated voices?

Jules: I think the quality’s changing super fast. What maybe sounds a bit monotonous now—and I think that’s the main quality that AI voices tend to have now—I think that’s going to change really fast.

When you hear some of the higher-end products in that space, like ElevenLabs, you realize the way things are evolving. It is quite astounding.

At the moment, there are very clear tells, and I think most people will be able to pick those up. Although, having said that, like in film imagery, it’s starting to get quite blurred as to whether you can tell or not.

I did test my partner on a couple of examples: “Is this an AI or is this not an AI?” And what’s really astounding is sometimes he thought a human voice was an AI.

Joanna: Mm-hmm.

Jules: Which is kind of, “Oh heck.” And that’s happening with photos and with films too. You remember that thing about food photography where people were saying the AI food photography looks much more appetizing and realistic. Where’s that heading?

Technically, it’s often things like the emphasis on the wrong syllable. I hear a lot of downward inflections. If you listen to the KDP examples, you hear this: “Once upon a time, there was a…” The rhythm and the pitch go down in quite a regular way, and over time that can get almost sleepy.

People often have much more variation; they go up at the ends of sentences and they go down. A lot of the AIs are kind of going down at the end. I’m hearing that a lot, and that might be somebody’s natural inflection, but I think it’s quite a pattern when you listen to the voice samples in KDP.

The other thing I notice as tells, but you have to listen blooming hard to hear these and really be on the alert for them, is emphasis on the wrong syllable. One I heard was like, “salt pans” rather than “salt pans,” or “hot to the touch” rather than “hot to the touch.” It might just slightly misplace the emphasis in a phrase.

I listened to your book; I think your voice clone is absolutely amazing.

Joanna: That’s a higher-end ElevenLabs voice clone.

Jules: Yes, and it sounds absolutely uncanny. Your voice timbre and the inflections in your voice are just amazing. All I could hear very occasionally was a slight misemphasis of something like “salt pans” rather than “salt pans.” It was that kind of thing, but that was the tell for me. Otherwise, I don’t think I’d have known.

Joanna: It is interesting. Coming back to what your husband thought, I sometimes listen to a sample of someone, an author reading their own work, and think, “Oh, I quite like his voice.”

Then after maybe half an hour, I’m like, “I can’t listen to this anymore.” So I feel like the level of judgment we have for human narration is also pretty similar.

As you mentioned, the wrong emphasis. I listened and directed almost every single line of that book, Death Valley, and we worked really hard. It’s very interesting because if I had narrated that myself as a human, I might have used the same emphasis and you would’ve thought that was different.

When we are proof-listening to humans, these things come up, don’t they? There are always things you might disagree with in terms of the way things are said.

Jules: Absolutely, and there are natural inflections in certain kinds of accents which might be indistinguishable from the way that an AI would say it. It might have a downward pattern, or that thing in lots of British English now where people have that rising inflection at the end.

I as a speaker of Scots wouldn’t know whether an accent which is from South Carolina or something is authentic or not. I think if you’re at a distance from the accent that the book is read in, you probably couldn’t tell.

Some of the Scottish accents, for example, because I’m really close to it, I’m finding, “Ooh, that doesn’t sound very authentic.” But with a lot of American accents, I really wouldn’t know where it was from or whether it was authentic or not.

I think conversely, that would happen for them with British accents. So it’s all about context. Often I’ve heard that if people are primed that it’s AI, then they listen in a different way than if they don’t know. So I think the blur is just something that’s going to get more and more blurry.

Joanna: I agree, and as you say, I label everything so people will know whether it’s human me or voice clone me. I also feel like people have different expectations of what they want from audio.

You mentioned the BBC radio dramas you’ve been involved with. Now, the expectation there is an incredibly high-quality human production, possibly with famous actors.

Compare that to me out for a walk listening to a nonfiction book on Spotify near a busy road. I have a completely different expectation of the content and the production than for a BBC radio drama.

There are different levels, aren’t there?

Jules: Yes, you’re listening in different ways and for different reasons, and there are different genres. You might be listening for information or for entertainment, and these things will change how you listen.

A lot of audiobooks narrated by AI are more towards nonfiction, which seems to me a sensible use when people are listening for information. Why does it have to be a very highly performed, highly characterized kind of voice?

Whereas if you’ve got a novel with lively characterization, you want to hear that spoken in a particular way. If it leaps off the page, you want it to leap off in the audio experience as well. So I think they’re very different contexts.

Joanna: Again, with a radio drama, there’s the multicast production, maybe with sound effects. This is something that for indie authors has been almost entirely impossible because of the expense and the technical skill you need to edit a multicast radio drama.

What are your thoughts on multi-voice with AI? Is that going to make it more accessible to people?

Jules: I think it’s open to experiment and to people trying these things out because these are new possibilities that are coming in.

I really am interested in what that might mean for radio drama because that definitely means huge implications for actor jobs, which is a massive concern. In film, you’re seeing people using avatars and artificial sets. It’s really quite seismic throughout the creative industries.

For indie authors, it is an opportunity to try some things out. I don’t know whether many people have yet tried that multi-voice with AI voices, but things like the voice changer are quite transformative. It’s really fun to actually try that out.

With that, you get the expressiveness and the inflections of your own emotion put across, so the spacing and the intensity are in there, but you can change the timbre and the voice quality. That’s really interesting.

I wonder if indie authors, and indeed producers in the radio drama sphere, might be starting to experiment with that kind of thing because it certainly gives you the option of a massive cast, which you wouldn’t be able to do otherwise.

In film, you’ve got CGI, and in some ways, people have been able to build crowd scenes that they wouldn’t have had the budget to do. What are the options then in the sound world? It’s a really interesting time.

Joanna: I can see, for example, maybe you keep the big-name actors because they’re the ones on the headlines, but then there might be 20 other voices in the production. Perhaps somebody would’ve just narrated a couple of lines, like the police person coming to the door.

I think at the moment it’s “this whole book is AI narrated” or “this whole book is human,” but I can see a sort of hybrid approach with multicast-type production.

Jules: I can, but actually I think it’d be a real pain to edit. With an actor’s versatility and different performance skills, I think there’s a bit of a difference for me between a trained actor with massive performance skills, which are just brilliant to hear, and someone who’s maybe got a beautiful voice but hasn’t got the performance background for a novel.

I think I’d be looking for that in a narrator every time. I just think they’ll do a superb job of that, and part of the interest for the listener is also hearing your Stephen Frys or actors who have got that kind of really engaging versatility and a lovely voice.

I just think that’s a more immersive and compelling experience for me. I don’t think it’ll ever quite go there, and I think actors will actually do it more effectively. It’s just that it does cost a lot more.

Then your editing costs, your production cost, I think would be quite high doing multi-voice with short-fire dialogue. I think that would be quite epic to achieve.

Joanna: But again, that might be now. There are already famous people licensing their voices, and also the estates of the dead. You mentioned Stephen Fry, who is still alive as we record this and is a wonderful writer, actor, and voice.

Is it likely that Stephen Fry will license his voice, or that his heirs and successors will license his voice after he dies?

I often think of David Attenborough here.

Jules: Oh gosh.

Joanna: His voice is super famous, isn’t it? As British people, it’s like this voice is iconic. I cannot see how the BBC won’t be trying to license Attenborough’s voice.

Jules: Oh god, that’s a terrible thought. I can’t imagine him doing it. I think he’d be horrified if his estate and the family did it. That would be such a betrayal, but I guess some people are going there and considering it. I did spot one on ElevenLabs which was somebody who had licensed their voice, who does a lot of audio online.

Joanna: ElevenLabs has Laurence Olivier, Deepak Chopra, Maya Angelou…

Jules: Wow. Have they really got famous voices in there?

Joanna: Burt Reynolds, I’m just looking now. Richard Feynman. They’ve got these iconic voices. They’ve got John Wayne.

Jules: Oh my goodness. What would John Wayne make of that? What would Laurence Olivier make of this?

Joanna: This is the thing. I think it’s very hard. You fast forward a decade, and goodness knows, this will be either completely normal or something else. It is a very interesting time.

Jules: Yes. I’ve certainly had my mind blown by listening to some of these voices and understanding what’s possible. It is really mind-blowing.

Joanna: Regardless of whether we work with human narrators or AI narration, we still need to keep in mind principles around writing for audio. It’s not a case of, “Here’s the existing book in text and it will just be perfect in audio.” So, let’s start with nonfiction.

What are some of the things we need to keep in mind if we are trying to adapt a nonfiction book into audio?

Jules: For nonfiction, the main thing is there are lots of visual elements that are in nonfiction books like graphs, layout features, and header hierarchies. For that, you need to find some kind of workaround, such as maybe one of these PDF uploads, or just cut these elements.

You need to look very carefully at what visual elements don’t translate well into audio.

Numbers are another thing that’s a little bit tricky because they’re hard to take in. Your brain just doesn’t hold more than five or seven things at one time. There are certain radio conventions like rounding up and down.

Also things in radio like putting somebody’s job before their name, like “the company boss, Fred Bloggs” rather than “Fred Bloggs, the company boss,” because we take the context in best first and then go into the details. I think context and details is a useful concept in audio writing generally.

Other techniques that are really good are forward flagging. So, “Up next, you’ll hear…” You hear that a lot on the radio so people are a bit better oriented. Then backward flagging: “So, we’ve just heard about wombats and now we’re moving on to koala bears.”

That kind of structuring and giving signals so that people are better oriented is pretty important in nonfiction in particular.

Joanna: You mentioned lists of numbers. I go further and say lists in general. Sometimes I’ll be listening to an audiobook and there’s clearly a list of bullet points in the text, but the way it’s read sometimes just doesn’t work.

I think rewriting lists into a more coherent paragraph can work. I guess the overall point is you are adapting for audio, so sometimes you will actually have to rewrite sections.

Jules: Absolutely. What I’ve found more productive over the years is writing audio-first, and then I don’t have to spend time doing that work of rewriting. I did find that I needed an awful lot of cuts and then some rejigging, as you say. Now I actually write audio-first, then I don’t have to do that editing.

Joanna: But what do you mean by that?

When you’re saying, “I write audio-first,” what do you mean?

Jules: I always read it out loud as I’m writing and test it for whether it will work on air. I’m writing it as a kind of performance. The sentences are shorter. I won’t use really awkward words. I’ll make sure the order of information is right, just so that it unfolds well for the listener.

There are things like mental backflips, where asides are a bit trickier with audio, so I’ll probably avoid that kind of structure.

So, definitely reading it aloud, and to be honest, I think that that actually improves your writing anyway because it gives it more clarity. I just find that has been really helpful for me as an editor.

Joanna: For me, I often use a lot of references in my nonfiction books at the end of the chapter. Part of my adaptation is removing a lot from the narration. Some people are quite religious, like, “No, you have to read every single line that’s in the ebook.” And I’m like, well, no, you don’t.

It’s not even abridged if you don’t include things like resource lists or appendices. As you mentioned, you can do a download PDF.

Jules: Exactly, because they’re not going to make very compelling audio. They’re just going to sound like that long list of things. URLs are terrible as well. It’s great to just put those into a PDF, which most of the platforms now allow you to upload.

That adds value as well to what you’re providing for the readers. I think that’s a really legitimate way to solve that.

Joanna: Although as a listener, I never, ever download the PDF.

Jules: True. But we know it’s there if anyone does want to.

Joanna: On URLs, if there are URLs you do want to say, I use pretty links on my site to make an easy-to-say, easy-to-read URL as opposed to the super, super long one. But generally, it’s hard to listen to and unless someone’s taking notes, it doesn’t really matter.

Jules: Good call. And “www” is so hard to say, so you can just take that bit off and just say, “yoursite.com.” You don’t need to have the “www.” That’s already saving you loads of syllables.

Joanna: That’s an interesting thing around human narration versus AI narration. With human narration, sometimes I will pick up on things, whether it’s me or another professional, and I will have read a different word, a word that’s not even there, or I would never have said “www” out loud because I just assume it wouldn’t be read.

Of course, with AI narration, it is going to read every single thing. It’ll be really literal.

Jules: Absolutely.

Joanna: So you do have to take it away. I will add there, one of the benefits is if there is a mispronunciation across the whole book, you only have to change it once with AI and it will update the whole thing.

Jules: Oh, that’s very handy. For character names and all that kind of thing.

Joanna: Yes, that is super useful. Okay, so let’s come back to fiction then.

If we are writing for audio-first, what are some tips for fiction?

Jules: I think some of these points are general, whether it’s fiction or nonfiction. So things like order of information and clarity and not overloading, so that there’s too much for the listener to take in at once.

Remember the context that people are listening in rather than reading. They’re very often doing something else. They might be in the car, or there might be noises in the background, or they might be rushing around doing jobs in the house. So, it really needs to be very clear. You can’t emphasize that enough.

Some kinds of fiction are more reflective and maybe have lots of long sentences. Long sentences can be hard for a human narrator to read really effectively. So look at the length of sentences.

I heard some plays being read in my early days, and it was quite horrendous because I realized my sentences meant the actors couldn’t breathe. That’s a really useful tip for fiction.

That reading out loud tip I think is really important. Also, you can maybe cut some of the “he said, she said.” Depending on whether it’s a straight narration of a novel or a character performance style of audiobook, you might be able to cut some of the scaffolding.

Joanna: In fact, one of the most annoying things as a listener is the repetition of words or sounds. A lot of early writing advice was, “Oh, just use ‘he said, she said’ always, because it disappears on the page.”

It might disappear to the eyes, but it doesn’t disappear to the ear. So as you say, get rid of “he said, she said” and use action tags like, “Morgan walked to the window” and then starts speaking. You don’t have to use the word “said.”

On your breathing point, another editing tip I found with AI audio is you just add in more punctuation.

It might be incorrect punctuation according to written editorial, but it’s punctuation that helps with the direction of the AI audio.

Jules: Absolutely. I do that as markup in the script anyway. You wouldn’t put that in the printed form, but I used to use a lot of slashes and things and extra commas religiously to make sure the breathing was clear. So I would absolutely do that for an audiobook.

If you go into the studio, if you’re reading your own, it might not be the same as your printed book, but I would have a version where all those things are in there. It saves you a lot of time later on. It saves you fluffing quite a lot.

I think the other thing that’s important for fiction is where you land in sentences. There’s kind of real estate within sentences, which includes the beginnings and ends of sentences.

Sometimes I used to read student fiction and quite often something like the murder weapon might be buried in the middle of a paragraph and slightly go under. Whereas if you build up to something and then it’s “the knife,” that’s kind of resonant.

It’s something from poetry; the use of lines and where things land can be really powerful on air. It’s really worth thinking about that when you’re writing, using those powerful places because they give such clarity to what’s going on and make it easier to follow.

Joanna: I actually think that people have to be listeners in order to understand this. If you don’t listen to audiobooks and then you’re trying to make an audiobook—

You need to be listening to audiobooks in order to understand what sounds good.

Jules: Absolutely. I think you have to do your research and listen to books in your genre and get the feel for it and really look closely at the writing.

I learned a lot from reading writers really closely and working out what they’re doing, what tricks and techniques they are using. I think that’s a really valuable thing for getting into audio-first writing.

Joanna: I also just wanted to mention that, as we record this, it’s not out yet, but the ElevenLabs Version 3 is going to have direction available in square brackets. So you can say [whispered] and the dialogue will be whispered, as opposed to you having to write, “she whispered.” You can direct the voice within the text.

So that is going to be hopefully available, I guess, let’s say autumn 2025 maybe. So that’s certainly going to be interesting.

Jules: It sounds really interesting. It reminds me a bit of music where you have the annotation for music notes and then you have an extra layer on top, which is the expression, what’s emphasized and what goes loud and what goes soft. So it’s kind of aligned to that. I think that’s a really interesting development.

Joanna: I think the other thing I’ve heard about is, at the moment we’re talking about doing a lot of direction in the text, but essentially—

At some point, you should just be able to upload a book and it should be able to do all of that itself. There’ll be a lot more tools and help with it. What do you think?

Jules: I’m not sure about that. I’m a bit skeptical because I just think human performance has got lots of expressive possibilities that I don’t see AI easily being able to reproduce. So I’m kind of on that fence at the moment. But also, knowing how much things are changing, it’s really hard to tell.

What I noticed in ElevenLabs is that you have these sliders. I thought that was really intriguing, that there are different sliders where you can move different parameters.

It’s not just a case that you have that voice and that’s what you work with. You can also tweak it and have it at low or high intensity and kind of change things.

So it’s interesting what you were saying about working with your producer there and the degree of control that you have within that, which I think people are maybe not aware of. It’s not just a case of uploading it and there it is, but there are lots of tweaks you can do on the way.

Joanna: Yes, I mean, there’s a total spectrum of what you can do in audio. What I would like is the stratification of audio rights, where you can license a book for human narration and you can license a book for AI narration and then multicast.

So it’s not just one thing; you can have different variations and then different price points as well.

People expect to pay more for a multicast human actor audio than they do for AI narration.

Jules: I think that’s similar to what’s happening with books. Special add-ons and special formats that are really sort of artisanal command a premium price. So, I think similarly with audio, that may happen there as well.

Joanna: I just want to pick up there. You said artisanal, whereas I would say artisanal. This is a classic case of two humans actually pronouncing a word differently, and that also speaks to how difficult it is to direct a human or an AI.

Jules: Absolutely. The same word pronounced differently by different people in different countries. It’s a really interesting consideration in audiobooks for lesser-known languages or lesser-known dialects because it’s an opportunity to maybe hear them more.

Or voice clones could be used for that kind of thing and maybe give more airing to lesser-known dialects. So maybe more variety in the kinds of audiobooks that people can produce.

Joanna: When I was at the Frankfurt Book Fair a few years ago, I heard a Ghanaian publisher, and she was basically saying, “You are all discussing this about English language audiobook production. You have this developed market, you have all the structural stuff that you need to have a really strong audiobook culture. We don’t have that, and now we are going to build it.”

In the English language, we have a long history of doing this, so there are a lot of people in the industry. But there are countries where there’s nothing in their native languages. So I think this is another opportunity, as you say.

Jules: Absolutely. I think that’s an awesome opportunity. It’s been the same with books as well. I think access to the means of production is really opening up things for people, and I think that’ll just give such great variety for listeners. I think that’s only positive.

Joanna: Before we finish, you are obviously an author and you also produce audiobooks. How do you recommend authors try and sell more books in audio?

What are some of the ways that you market your audiobooks?

Jules: At the moment, that’s not too easy because I’m with Audible solely, and it’s usually on the back of the print and ebooks. So what I would do is advertise that through Amazon and get some audiobook sales on the back of that.

Sometimes I’ve given out QR codes and that kind of thing, but by and large, they’re just advertising on my site and I use the marketing via Amazon ads. I’m hoping that there will be more chance of audiobook-direct advertising in the future because that’ll make a huge difference.

One thing I’ve never done, which I’m interested in—I think you do this, Joanna—is it’s possible to sell books on your own website as well. Some authors are withdrawing from being with Amazon and only selling their audiobooks themselves.

Some authors have taken it into their own hands. So there is that possibility as well. Services like BookFunnel let you have your fans who want to buy your books and buy direct.

Joanna: Yes, it is actually the most profitable way to sell audiobooks, especially in bundles. For example, at CreativePennBooks.com, you can buy bundles of my audiobooks. So you get a good deal, I get more profit, and I get paid immediately.

If you go wide, to me now, going wide means having your own store plus all the other things as well. Whereas you can’t do bundling on Audible because of the credit system. Of course, if you go non-exclusive with Audible, your royalty drops precipitously. So it is definitely a choice, but it can certainly be done.

Okay, fantastic.

So tell people where they can find you and your books online.

Jules: I’m online at www.method-writing.com and you can buy my ebook and print books there, and my audiobooks are on Amazon.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Jules. That was great.

Jules: Thanks for having me, Joanna. It’s a pleasure.

The post Writing For Audio First With Jules Horne first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Author: Joanna Penn

/ Jun 29, 2025 / Comments Off on Writing For Audio First With Jules Horne

Producing AI-Narrated Audiobooks Using ElevenLabs With Simon Patrick

Is the high cost of audiobook production holding you back? What if you could create a high-quality audiobook for a fraction of the traditional cost?

In this conversation, Simon Patrick explores the world of AI narration with ElevenLabs, discussing how you can gain complete creative control, and even license your own voice clone for a new stream of income.

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This episode is supported by my patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Simon Patrick founded Ten Times Better Books to support his daughter, Abby Patrick, as one of ElevenLabs’ first users and beta testers. He has produced several of their most popular AI voices. He now develops courses and AI audiobook solutions for independent authors at Novel Productions.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

  • Costs vs benefits of human vs AI narration
  • Features of ElevenLabs — realistic and expressive voices, creative control, ownership of final audio files for wide distribution to platforms like Spotify.
  • Practical tips for AI narration
  • ElevenLabs v3 and emotion tags
  • Creating and monetizing a voice clone
  • Publishing on ElevenReader

You can find Simon at Novel.Productions or 10xb.com.

Transcript of the interview

Joanna: Simon Patrick founded Ten Times Better Books to support his daughter, Abby Patrick, as one of ElevenLabs’ first users and beta testers. He has produced several of their most popular AI voices. He now develops courses and AI audiobook solutions for independent authors at Novel Productions. Welcome to the show, Simon.

Simon: Thank you, Joanna. It’s such a joy to be speaking with you. Your podcast and books were foundational to my daughter, Abby, becoming an author and me learning to be her publisher and all that’s happened since.

I love your Patreon @thecreativepenn. It’s the best money I spend every month, frankly. It’s just a great community to be part of, so it’s such a joy to be sharing some of what I’ve learned.

Joanna: Oh, thank you so much. Behind the scenes on the Patreon, Simon has done a video demo of ElevenLabs. Today, obviously, we’re doing audio-only. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about your background and why you decided to get into AI-narrated audiobooks.

Simon: Okay. Well, I’ve got 25 years of experience in marketing and design. I still am halftime head of communications for an international charity, but we’ve always had our own businesses too.

My wife and I ran a small home education tuition publishing business. We’ve home-educated our three kids, which brings me to Abby, my daughter who brought me into your world of book publishing.

She was going to college, studying early years education, and was just bored out of her mind. She asked if she could drop out of college to be a writer instead. She’d been writing a book since she was 15. To the astonishment of her friends and some of ours too, we said yes.

Let me add, it was responsible parenting. We made her finish the term, stick it out, and do the work experience. By Christmas 2019, she’d left to pursue finishing her book based on the deal that —

If she learned to write, I would learn to publish for her.

Joanna: Wow!

Simon: So I attended the first Self Publishing Show in that crazy spring of 2020. I think you were there too, just a few days before the pandemic shut us all down. I’ve listened to hundreds of your podcasts, read your books, done some of the Self-Publishing Formula courses, and learned to be Abby’s publisher.

Since then, I have used those skills and connected with a few other authors, so I probably publish a book or two a month, something like that.

Audio has always been the stumbling block. I love audiobooks. As a family, we must consume hundreds of hours a month of them. There are incredible narrators like Ray Porter and Daniel Rigby, who self-narrates his own Audible exclusives, and my absolute favourite, a guy called Jeff Hayes, who narrates incredibly.

They’re amazing talents, and I don’t think AI is going to touch them because they bring so much humanity to the performance.

But to ordinary authors and publishers, those narrators are inaccessible. I don’t even want to think about what they cost.

For Abby, who is still just starting out, any professional narration would cost her three to four thousand dollars for her books. The math just doesn’t work. While there are options like a royalty split with ACX, Audible’s publishing platform, I struggle with that.

Firstly, you’re tied in exclusively to Audible for seven years, and we’re big fans of going wide.

Secondly, you’re only getting 20% of the royalties when it’s being split. I just don’t think for us, they’re ever going to make that money back. So all of that is what led me in early 2023 to be searching for AI audio options.

ChatGPT was going crazy, you were demoing all of that at the time, and I figured there must be some kind of AI audio option that would let me take control of the process and hopefully produce good audiobooks way more cheaply than current options. That’s when I discovered ElevenLabs.

Joanna: There’s lots to unpack there. First of all, as you mentioned, there are some incredible human narrators, and we want to acknowledge them. I’m also a human narrator myself.

For most authors, especially indie authors or new authors, it’s not a choice between human or AI; it’s AI or nothing because they can’t afford the fees.

As you said, a lot of the time you don’t know if you’re going to make the money back. So I think that’s really important to acknowledge.

There are lots of AI narration options now. It is hard for authors to decide which platform to use.

So what is ElevenLabs, and why do you think it’s the best option for quality and also for publishing reach?

You mentioned ACX, and there’s obviously AVV, the Audible Virtual Voice. Most people might think, “Well, maybe I should just do that.”

Give us an overview on why you made that decision to go with ElevenLabs.

Simon: Absolutely. ElevenLabs continues to be the most realistic AI platform out there. They kicked off about two and a half years ago. I was one of their first users, and even back then, they were so much better than everything else.

There were lots of programmers wanting to do clever things with APIs and websites, but I just wanted to make audiobooks with these things. They were actually listening, which is remarkable in the publishing industry sometimes.

About a year and a half ago, and for reference, we’re in June 2025 right now, they launched ElevenLabs Studio. It can take a whole book, like the ePub that I’ve worked on for Abby or a Word document, you can drop it in and have it convert it chapter by chapter, paragraph by paragraph into a great-sounding audiobook.

The high quality and natural-sounding elements of it are why I was first attracted to them. The expressiveness is just another step above.

The comparison with Amazon’s Virtual Voice is that it’s so much more pleasant to listen to, but it doesn’t just sound better —

What I love about it is the complete creative control it gives me. There are thousands of voices I can pick from, a whole library of voices.

They’re real people, people like me, actually, who have recorded their voice and then licensed it to ElevenLabs and get paid a small amount. Then when it’s used, there’s actually compensation to those who’ve licensed their voices to it.

It’s not like the large language models like ChatGPT where the whole universe seems to have been scraped and compiled into this thing. They’re being super diligent about making sure it’s all kosher, that it’s real people’s voices and they’re getting compensated.

Beyond that, the tools they’re building give you control. They’re incredibly open to listening to feedback, which has been brilliant. I’m talking to the programmers regularly. They’ve got a great Discord where they’re asking for feedback.

With the tools, I can spend time perfecting the book. I can get the dialogue just the way I want it. I can create a duet audiobook with a male narrator for male POVs and a female for female POVs. I can even do multi-cast and assign different voices to each character in the book.

Probably most importantly, I can download the whole thing as WAV files or MP3s.

The big difference with something like Amazon Virtual Voice is that I own what I’ve created with ElevenLabs.

It’s a commercial license, so I can put them into BookFunnel’s audio delivery service, I can put them on my website, you can add them to a Kickstarter, stick them on YouTube, or just give them away for free if I wanted to.

In terms of publishing reach, they’re doing a lot. We were kind of stuck with either self-publishing, YouTube, or Kobo, who are superstars and super open. But one of the game changers that’s happened in the last few months is you can now add them to Spotify, which has come in as the big disruptor for Audible and Amazon.

You’ve done that recently with the book that we produced together. How’s that been?

Joanna: Death Valley, which has been on the feed, you can listen to a couple of chapters, and that’s using my voice clone. We’ll come back to the voice clone in a minute.

As you mentioned, I think it’s mainly the ownership of the files and the Spotify distribution.

At the moment, it really is only Google’s auto-narration and ElevenLabs that you can use legitimately on Spotify through Findaway Voices. You cannot use the AVV files anywhere else.

So I think that’s incredibly important because, of course—

We can talk forever about how to make audio, but it’s also about selling audio, isn’t it?

Simon: And for anyone who’s dealt with KDP or Audible customer services, I probably don’t have to say what the experience was like. So another reason I love ElevenLabs is their support has been brilliant.

There’s this Discord I mentioned where there are dozens of super helpful and patient people giving input. Their customer service team replies quickly, it’s personal, they’re helpful, and they’ve got amazing documentation.

Stepping back a little bit, the fact that we can create well-narrated audiobooks for a hundred to two hundred dollars plus a few days of learning and production on each one is just incredible.

I took my two boys to a local Comic-Con recently, and there was a self-published author there with a single beautiful book. He’d clearly poured his heart and money into this thing.

There were beautiful cover bookmarks and giveaways, and then I saw he had an audiobook. We got talking about it. He’d got it professionally narrated, and he opened up and said it cost £7,000.

I honestly wanted to cry. I genuinely get emotional about it even now. I want us as authors and publishers to put our time, energy, and money into creating incredible stories and getting our words out into the world and just make everything around that as simple as possible, using tech where we can.

Joanna: I just want to comment on this because one of the reasons we timestamp these episodes is because I’ll have people email me and say, “Oh, but you said this,” and I’m like, “Yeah, but when did I say that?”

For example, in 2014 when I started audiobook publishing on ACX, they were the only thing out there, and they were the bee’s knees. We had a much higher royalty rate, there were very few audiobooks around, and you could make that money back. The amount of money you mentioned, you could make back quite quickly.

Now, I know some people will be saying, “Oh, but I make that money back.” And I’m like, “Well, yeah, if you are an established author, absolutely.” If you have a popular series, if you know that you already make that kind of money from audiobooks, then you can.

We are in a different era in 2025. There’s a lot more audio, and of course, AI is a double-edged sword. There is going to be more audio than ever before.

The question is, how do we make that money back?

If we lower the costs, then we also lower the amount of revenue we need to make to offset that.

Simon: And you know, it’s going to move on fast, but now is an extraordinary time. I love good audiobooks, and the fact that AI can help me make those now is very exciting to me.

Joanna: It’s super fun. You and I both have a reasonably technical background, so we can use these tools. To be fair, you said wonderful documentation. I am terrible at reading documentation. I just jump in and give it a go.

There are people who don’t know anything about AI audio. How does it work?

Can you give a few key elements and tips for authors if they want to use ElevenLabs for AI narration?

Simon: Yeah, I’ve got five tips for you. First, go in and check it out. There is a creator package that you can get for half price for the first month. I would say for exploration, it is worth getting for $11 just to have a little bit of a play with it.

Getting familiar with the platform can be a little intimidating because it does lots of different things, like voice changing, sound effects, and dubbing video.

We are really only interested in the Studio tool. As soon as you go into that Studio tool, it will start to feel familiar. You can click “Create an audiobook,” drop your ePub in there, and basically instantly see how this thing works, breaking it into chapters, applying a voice, and clicking play.

The warning though is this creator package, at $22 a month, is not good enough to create professional audiobooks. This is my first tip: you need the Pro package, which is $99 a month, because that is what outputs 192 kilobits per second.

That’s the technical specification that you need to go on BookFunnel or Spotify. You only get that by using the $99 a month package. You get about 10 hours of audio creation in that, so for a lot of people, that could make a book. The hours roll over, so you can either wait for month two and have enough hours to do it.

As soon as you’re done with your book, you can downgrade to a $5 a month package, so don’t worry, it’s not trapping you in there. Just know that you need the $99 a month Pro package to produce your audiobooks.

My second tip is to — 

Really spend time choosing or making your voice.

You had an experience with this, Joanna, where you try out a voice, commit to it, and then realize two or three chapters in that you don’t like it. I’ve had that experience too.

So use that first month on the creator package to really play with voices. Generate your first chapter in five or six different voices. Really get familiar and comfortable with a voice that you want to use so that you’re not wasting time and credits when you get into producing something.

Third, don’t get overwhelmed; have fun with it. It’s amazing hearing your book come to life in audio. I feel if you give it an hour, the Studio tool is pretty intuitive. If you have the level of tech ability to do something like typesetting in Atticus or Vellum or use Scrivener, you can absolutely master using Studio.

My fourth tip, and a warning, is that it still takes time. This isn’t some one-button wonder. Your novella, Death Valley, was six and a half hours long. That took 18 hours of editing.

Joanna: And this is where people get confused because with AVV, the Audible Virtual Voice, there is no control. You literally do click one button and it goes live. There’s almost no point in proof-listening to it because you can’t actually change it.

With Studio, you have such fine control that you can add pauses, a breath in the middle of a sentence, or change the emphasis.

You kind of direct it with Studio, don’t you?

Simon: That’s the word I use, yes. Directing. It’s like you’re directing an audiobook. If you are doing non-fiction, it is borderline a one-click wonder. It will deliver it amazingly, and you need to listen to it once, and you’re good to go.

If you’ve spent a year or two writing a book, think about the effort we put into making it look good in the typesetting and the covers. A day or two to listen to it, refine it, and make it represent your vision is not time wasted. I’m only interested in high-quality audiobooks that do the story justice.

I want to be proud of it. I want Abby to be proud of it. I highly encourage people, particularly fiction writers, to be prepared to spend two or three days working on the book. It is so rewarding to get something that comes out the other end that you are proud of.

Joanna: And just on the proofing, if you work with a human narrator, you will be doing proofing. You listen to the audio, find the timestamp, explain what you want changed, and send it back to the human to rerecord.

The process is probably pretty similar in terms of the amount of time taken, but you can do it yourself, and there are areas that help.

For example, if there’s a character name, you can fix that once for the whole audio, can’t you?

Simon: Correct. It’s a pronunciation dictionary for any words. It really struggled with “croissant.” It does little random things. I think our favorite was when it pronounced “desert” as “dessert.”

Joanna: It just would not stop wanting some dessert! What are some other tips?

Simon: My fifth and final tip right now, and this is only pertinent to those listening as this is broadcast, is if you are wanting to do an audiobook for your fiction book, you should wait.

If you’re doing non-fiction, the existing models are amazing. But last week, their Version 3 model was released, and it is a game-changer.

The initial reactions are, “I can never go back to Version 2.”

Version 3, from an expression and liveliness perspective, but also from a control and direction perspective, is changing the game. It wasn’t even supposed to come out for a couple of months, so they’re moving forward with this fast.

The real reason to wait is it’s got one massive feature upgrade that I’ve been waiting for for at least a year: You can add emotion tags. Previously, if we wanted someone to whisper, sometimes it would figure it out from the text.

Other times, we would literally be adding, “he whispered,” “she shouted,” “he said excitedly.” We were kind of gaming the system.

Now, we can add tags in square brackets to the text like [whispers], [shouts], [says thoughtfully], [says in a British accent].

There is this whole world of things it can do that allows us to work much more effectively as a director, particularly for dialogue and emphasis. There is even a button that will read the text and put in suggested tags throughout the book. The AI is reading those instructions but not reading them out loud.

So it is the big breakthrough in terms of us creating audiobooks that sound exactly how we want them to.

Joanna: That is really good. I’m looking forward to that as well. Let’s wind it back for people. You mentioned non-fiction quite quickly.

For non-fiction, what do I do about the table of contents, URLs, or images in my text?

Simon: When you upload the ePub, you can just delete those bits.

I feel like people forget that you have control. You can completely change the front matter, the back matter, and the bits around it to be something that’s going to work most effectively when it’s delivered on the platforms you want. And you can create different versions.

Joanna: And I think it’s really important for people to remember with audiobooks that it is an adaptation, however you’re doing it. It is a different product.

With Death Valley, for example, I would say to you, “Oh, well, let’s just rewrite that sentence,” because it would be easier for me to rewrite it and it will keep the same meaning.

Simon: Exactly. You have that luxury as the author, which is why people doing it themselves is wonderful. When producing your book for you, I can’t take those liberties.

Joanna: So let’s come to the voice clone idea because, of course, you mentioned earlier that you’ve licensed your voice. We used my voice clone for Death Valley, and I am still on the fence as to whether or not to license that publicly.

What are some tips for people who want to license their voice or do a voice clone?

Simon: For me, it’s been amazing getting this bonus income that I totally didn’t expect. For Abby, it’s been life-changing. She is the most popular English British female voice. She’s called Amelia on ElevenLabs. She’s earning enough from her voice that she could quit a toxic job and go full-time writing. It’s extraordinary.

So, in terms of tips, if you are recording your own voice, whether you are going to use it yourself or think about sharing it with others, first of all, the quality of the recording is essential.

You want to be using a good microphone in a quiet place. There are lots of tools to clean it up, but nothing is going to compare to something that’s recorded well.

When you are delivering your voice, the delivery needs to be varied but consistent. I generally get authors to read their own book. You want to give variations in terms of tone and volume, from whispering through to high energy, as though you are reading to an engaged audience.

You do not want to put on character voices. That’s really important. The AI will pick up on the variations in your delivery, but it gets very confused if you’ve done character voices because it doesn’t know how those fit in with how you speak.

A cheat code for improving the quality if you don’t have a really good mic or a quiet area is Adobe Podcast. It’s a free service with an enhanced speech function. You can put your recording in there and massively improve how it sounds.

The tip is to not put it out at a 100% treatment; you want kind of 70% to 90% of their enhanced speech applied, or else it sounds too obviously affected by AI.

Joanna: And right now, my J.F. Penn voice is my voice, and I’m the only one who can use it.

There’s another step if you want to license it and put it in the voice market, isn’t there?

Simon: Yes, and the first challenge of that is genuinely a moral evaluation. If you want to monetize your voice, you have to decide if you are prepared for your voice to be used to say almost anything.

ElevenLabs has controls to stop things like hate speech or sexual content, but to really monetize it, you have to switch off a feature called “live moderation,” which prevents things like swearing.

As soon as you turn that live moderation on, your voice becomes unavailable for most uses that would make money, like audiobooks or conversational AI.

The second option to consider is the notice period. You can choose to have the right to instantly withdraw your voice or set a notice period of up to two years. They pay more if you’re prepared to have a longer minimum period.

As a producer, I am not going to start using someone’s voice for an audiobook series if I might not have it to use in three months’ time. I instantly filter for anything less than a year’s notice period and generally only pick two years.

If you want to monetize your voice, you have to turn live moderation off and give a two-year notice period, in my opinion.

A final tip would be to be safe. Do not publicly share your voice’s name and connect it with you as a person. Forget about voice recognition for telephone banking, for example.

Also, do your research. See what voices are most popular, what descriptions work best, and think about the sample you provide.

Joanna: As we head towards a close, we do need to quickly come back to — 

ElevenReader. It’s an emerging place to publish audiobooks, too. You can also upload e-books, and then listeners can choose the voice.

Back in 2020, I wrote in my book on AI that at some point there will be an app where listeners can choose whatever voice they want to listen to my book in, and this is it.

Simon: It’s super exciting. It’s an app you’ll find on your iPhone or Android store. It’s the consumer-facing side of ElevenLabs. You can drop in pretty much any content, like PDFs, e-books, and webpages, and it turns any text into speech. Right from the beginning, it’s also offered books for direct sale.

Joanna: We have to mention that Melania Trump has used a voice clone of her quite distinctive voice to do her memoir, also called Melania. She has basically said this is the future of publishing. “Here’s my AI voice clone, and it’s on ElevenReader.”

I thought that was a tipping point for me because it means that it’s going mainstream.

Simon: So you can see it like Audible or Spotify, except you can choose what voice you want to narrate it. For authors, it’s an amazingly simple way to offer an audiobook.

You don’t even have to go through the studio production process. You can just sign up to ElevenReader publishing and upload your book. Boom, they’ll review it and publish it.

Joanna: I would say to people, you must —

Read the terms and conditions of any site that you ever upload anything to.

Also, if your e-book is in Kindle Unlimited and exclusive to Amazon, you can’t upload that e-book to ElevenReader because it’s exclusive.

Simon: And we have just taken Abby’s books out of Kindle Unlimited so we can put them in ElevenReader this week.

Joanna: Before we go, you have courses coming and you also offer services to authors.

Tell us about those and where people can find you online.

Simon: Wonderful, thank you, Joanna. First, I’d be a very neglectful father if I didn’t mention that Abby’s latest book, Stolen Legacy, went live yesterday. You can find Abby Hope Patrick and her Deadly Ever After series on Amazon and, very soon, ElevenReader.

You can find my voice on ElevenReader; I’m “Christopher” on there.

The courses are something new. We’ve started a new website called Novel Productions. The first course will be “AI Audio for Authors” and will cover everything people need to know to get themselves not just onto ElevenLabs, but all platforms.

It’s also going to have training on how to record your own voice clones and monetize them if you want to. I was about to publish it, and then Version 3 of ElevenLabs came out, so I don’t want to train anyone on anything that’s not going to be the best in a couple of months.

So right now, if you go to Novel.Productions, there will be a waiting list that you can sign up to.

Regarding services, you were my first beta tester outside the books that I publish myself. We’re still weighing up how affordable we can make it. I’d rather teach people first, and if they don’t want to then do it themselves, we’ll see how we can help.

I’m beta testing that with authors, so you can email me at simon@novel.productions.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for your time, Simon. That was great.

Simon: Thank you, Joanna. It has been such a pleasure.

The post Producing AI-Narrated Audiobooks Using ElevenLabs With Simon Patrick first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Author: Joanna Penn

/ Jun 26, 2025 / Comments Off on Producing AI-Narrated Audiobooks Using ElevenLabs With Simon Patrick

How To Pitch Podcasts And Be A Great Podcast Guest With Matty Dalrymple

Are you looking for new ways to connect with readers and market your books? Have you considered using podcasts but aren’t sure where to start, or if they’re even effective anymore? How can you turn a simple podcast interview into a powerful tool for building your author career? Matty Dalrymple talks about how to leverage podcasting for long-term success.

In the intro, Robert MacFarlane on How I Write Podcast; Are em dashes really a sign of AI writing? [Grammar Girl]; Publishing Pitfalls for Authors; ALLi Self-Publishing Services list; Writer Beware; Midjourney for video;

This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Matty Dalrymple is the author of mysteries, thrillers, and nonfiction, and is the host of The Indy Author Podcast. Today we are talking about her new book, co-written with Mark Lefebvre, The Podcast Guest Playbook: Turning Conversations into Connections and Community.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

  • Why podcasts offer a deeper connection with potential readers compared to short-form video
  • How to pitch podcast hosts effectively by providing value and demonstrating familiarity with their show
  • Tangential topics and creative angles fiction authors can use to land interviews on a variety of shows
  • The importance of building authentic, non-transactional relationships with hosts and other creators
  • Practical tips on how to prepare for an interview and gain confidence as a podcast guest
  • Why it’s never too late to start your own podcast and how it can benefit your writing process

You can find Matty at MattyDalrymple.com or TheIndyAuthor.com. Matty also offers coaching for authors around podcast practice.

Transcript of the interview

Jo: Matty Dalrymple is the author of mysteries, thrillers, and nonfiction, and is the host of The Indy Author Podcast. Today we are talking about her new book, co-written with Mark Lefebvre, The Podcast Guest Playbook: Turning Conversations into Connections and Community. So welcome back to the show, Matty.

Matty: Thank you. It is lovely to be here.

Jo: Matty’s been on the show before. I need to check when it was. It was in 2020, which is obviously like a lifetime away now because it was the beginning of the pandemic. It is like a completely different life. But you did talk a bit then about how you got into writing.

What does your author life and business look like now?

Matty: Well, I think this had just become true in 2020, that I am a full-time author, podcaster, and publisher. Since then, I’ve continued to add to my two fiction series, the Ann Kinnear Suspense Novels and the Lizzy Ballard Thrillers.

I’ve also been working hard on my nonfiction books for authors. We’re going to be talking about my new book with Mark. Back then we had been talking about Taking the Short Tack, which is the first book I co-authored with Mark.

Since then, I have also co-authored two books with our mutual friend Michael La Ronn on being an author speaker and on, appropriately enough, co-authoring nonfiction. So, yes, continuing to add to the portfolio.

Jo: And of course, you’ve got the podcast and—

You are also an advisor for the Alliance of Independent Authors, right?

Matty: That’s right. I’m the Campaigns Manager, so I’m responsible for ALLi’s campaigns which are: Open Up to Indie Authors, Ethical Self-Publishing, Self-Publishing for All, and Publishing for Profit. That has been super fun. I’ve been doing that for just over a year now.

Jo: Fantastic. So yes, multiple strings to your bow. So let’s get into the book. I guess the first thing is, are podcasts even useful for book marketing in an age of short-form video? We’re all told that it’s all about TikTok and BookTok and social media.

What is special about podcasting that makes it worth investing time in?

Matty: Well, I think that the strength of podcasts is the depth of the connections you can form.

I have to say, I’m not super familiar with BookTok. When TikTok first came out, I spent about 35 seconds on it and I found it so not for me that it was clear I was not going to be providing content for TikTok or BookTok, and I probably wasn’t going to be consuming that content either.

I think that obviously some authors are getting great connections on BookTok, but it doesn’t feel like a deep relationship. It feels more like entertainment.

The strength of podcasts is that you do have a chunk of time—you know, 30 minutes or 45 minutes or an hour—to dive into your topic in depth, to describe your book, but more importantly, the stories behind your book in depth.

The benefit that those other platforms don’t have at all is the benefits that come from forming a relationship with the podcast host, which is something that Mark and I spend quite a bit of time discussing in the book. I think that’s kind of an underutilized benefit of podcasting.

Jo: A few things there. I mean, the in-depth conversation… people listening to this are people who listen to podcasts. So that is the kind of audience. But you are right, it gives people time to decide whether they even identify with this person in a deeper way.

I get so many of my book recommendations from podcasting. I think, “Well, that was interesting,” and I’ll go and listen to their book or read their book. You obviously interview people all the time for your show, and you are also a listener to shows.

How does podcasting translate into book sales, since that is an important reason for it?

Matty: It is about letting people know about a book or a new book, but I think more importantly, it’s about letting listeners know about you as an author.

The advice that Mark and I give very strongly is that if you go into a podcast interview with the mindset that what you’re looking to get out of this is book sales, it’s not going to be as effective, even for book sales, as if you go into it with the opinion that you’re there to provide value to the host and to the host’s listeners.

Then book sales and many other benefits are going to come from that. You intrigue people about your book by talking about it in a thoughtful and in-depth way, by sharing information. If you’re writing nonfiction, you want to get the word out about that.

I have learned this from you: you can share lots and lots of information from your nonfiction book on podcasts and people will still buy your book because they want it in even more depth than you can provide in a podcast interview.

They want it there for easy reference. They want it as an acknowledgment of the value you’ve provided. So going into that with that service mindset rather than a sales mindset, I think is the most important thing for getting sales.

Jo: Yes, I totally agree. Let’s talk about fiction as well, because you are a fiction writer. Both of us write fiction and nonfiction, but I do think it is harder for fiction authors to find appropriate podcasts to pitch and to talk about different angles.

So what’s your advice to fiction authors who might feel like it’s not so worthwhile?

Matty: Yes, I agree that it is more of a challenge for fiction authors. I think the thing to keep in mind for those authors is, first of all, to find the podcasts that are focused on your genre.

I think certain genres are easier for that. I write in the general crime fiction genre, and there are a number of podcasts that are focused on that, that are specifically targeted to crime fiction readers.

I think that there are probably other genres where there isn’t maybe that same breadth of availability of podcasts focused on reaching readers of those genres. I think in all those cases, the thing to do after you’ve identified the target podcasts is to think of the stories behind the story that you can tell.

We don’t recommend that you go into an interview with the idea that you’re going to share a summary of the plot of your book. That’s just not going to be interesting to anyone and may deter people from buying the book if they’ve heard what they think is the whole story.

Readers love to hear about the fiction process. Fiction readers love to hear about the research you put into your book, or if your characters are based on real people, or even if you can come up with interesting answers to the “where do you get your ideas?” question. That can be great fodder for these conversations.

Think of those things as what you would chat about if you met a reader who loved the same genre that you write in. You might, in your podcast interview, not even focus on your own book. You and the host might get into a really interesting conversation about other books in your genre.

Listeners will think, “Oh, that person had such an interesting take on horror, or on thriller, or on romance,” and now they want to see what your take is in your own book. So I think there are lots of angles that fiction writers can take that make for an interesting and engaging interview.

Jo: And for me, it’s about place. I have my Books and Travel podcast as well. As this goes out, the episode that should be up is on cruise ships and the mystery author Wendy Jones who writes cozy mysteries set on cruise ships.

She was an entertainer on cruise ships, and so we have an episode all about being on cruise ships and cruise ship life. Actually, she writes cozy mysteries, so some percentage of that audience will go on and have a look at her books, but it is that tangential thought.

Wendy pitched me on Books and Travel and said, “My books are set around cruise ships. We could talk about that.” And I’m like, “Yes, that is interesting.” Which was a much better pitch than maybe pitching me on this show to talk about cozy mysteries, because I’ve done that before.

So I think it’s thinking tangentially. What are the themes? Like you mentioned characters.

What are the topics that you have in your fiction book that might be appropriate for a different podcast?

Matty: Yes, and I can imagine that a very successful pitch for the Books and Travel podcast would be, “Here is an aspect of travel that maybe you haven’t hit before, and I think that your listeners would really be interested in this.”

Some listeners are going to have been on cruises and will be intrigued for that reason. Some of your listeners will not have been on cruises and are probably equally intrigued for different reasons. So emphasizing how this topic is going to help the host and be interesting to the audience.

Jo: Yes, exactly. You mentioned it before: providing value to the host and the listeners.

In the end, it’s not about you, the guest, even though it is about you. It is about giving value. So let’s talk about that.

What are some other tips for pitches that will land an interview and make the host want to talk to you as soon as that email arrives?

Matty: In addition to emphasizing the value you provide, I think the other key aspect of a successful pitch is making it clear that you understand the podcast you’re pitching. That this is not a generic pitch.

You are sending the pitch and you’re describing the value based on what is obviously your experience with that podcast.

For example, “Knowing that your listeners are interested in travel, I have an interesting spin on travel that I can share with them,” or “I think this would be a great follow-up to a previous episode where you talked about the Caribbean. I cruise to the Caribbean and I think this would be a nice companion episode.”

Sometimes I’ll get pitches… as listeners of The Indy Author Podcast will know, I love the nautical metaphor for the writing craft and the publishing voyage. Every once in a while, I’ll get a pitch that is completely based on a nautical metaphor that is instantly attention-getting to me.

So I think that combination of providing value and then demonstrating your familiarity with the podcast you’re pitching is important. No generic, “Dear Sir or Madam” kind of pitches.

Jo: Or “Dear Podcaster.”

Matty: “Dear Podcaster.” Or even worse, when it’s personalized, but wrong. I got a pitch for The Career Author Podcast once, and I was like, “That sounds fascinating, but that’s not my podcast.”

Jo: I think some of the worst pitches at the moment are from traditional publishing. I don’t know about you, but I just get these—they’re literally, they get my name right, but then they just copy and paste a press release and say, “You would love to interview this author.”

They’re not even really pitching for a podcast. They’re just scatter-gunning.

What are some of the things that people should find out about the host before they email?

Matty: Well, one thing I wanted to mention, because you had mentioned getting pitches from publishers or PR firms. I get a lot of pitches from PR firms and people are always really interested to hear that I actually set a higher bar for inviting a guest on the podcast if I’m being pitched by a third party.

It makes it very difficult for me to really get a sense of who the person is. I also feel as if third parties don’t necessarily always have the same incentive or ability to communicate the essence of the person they’re representing as the person does themselves.

So I think sometimes people who are thinking about pursuing podcast appearances think, “Oh, it’s going to look much more professional if I have a PR firm or my assistant approach them.” But for me, that’s not true. Hearing from the person directly is more attractive to me.

I think some of the other things to do or not to do are to be very flexible about what you’re asking. I can encapsulate many of the aspects of an unsuccessful pitch easily.

If the pitch is, “I have a new book, can I come on your podcast and talk about it?” That’s just wrong in so many ways. First of all, my podcast is not that kind of podcast.

My podcast is specifically with guests who have demonstrated expertise in an area of writing or publishing through writing a book about it, or writing an article about it, or speaking at a conference about it, and they’re demonstrating their expertise for books outside their own books.

That’s really the key for The Indy Author Podcast. You can’t come on just talking about your own book; you have to discuss what you’ve learned from your own experiences that can be generalized to my listeners.

And so, “I have a new book, can I come talk about it?” is also not demonstrating any value for the people you’re pitching. You’re only emphasizing what you’re trying to get out of that.

Summarizing what I was just running through:

Make the contact direct, emphasize the value, emphasize your familiarity, and mention other episodes from that podcast —

that you think would be good companions. I think that combination is the recipe for a successful pitch.

Jo: I like having a few bullet points, maybe three to five, that show there are multiple angles. You can obviously mention your book in the pitch. For example, you’d say, “I’m the author of The Podcast Guest Playbook, and here are some topics we could cover.”

I’ve definitely said yes to pitches like that because they’ve given me different angles that are potentially interesting—

Rather than a generic, “I’ve written a book,” you can say, “I’m the author of this book, and these are the angles we could cover.”

You could pitch The Podcast Guest Playbook on all kinds of levels—to an entrepreneur podcast because they are people who want to go on these shows, or to professional speaking podcasts—but on each one, you would have different bullet points as to how that might apply to that particular podcast.

I would also say, on referring to previous episodes, I think this has become a bit of a copy-and-paste hack that I get from so many now. They will literally say, “Dear Joanna, I really enjoyed the episode on The Podcast Guest Playbook with Matty Dalrymple, and I think you would like this book on flower arranging.”

They’ve literally just chucked in the last episode without thinking about it, and it makes you read the first sentence and then you’re like, “Oh, delete.”

Matty: Yes, unless there’s a legitimate connection, don’t do that. The benefit of making a connection is if you’re acknowledging, for example, that the host has had a guest on about podcasting previously, and you’re acknowledging that you recognize that, and yet you feel like your topic is different enough.

That’s another way of acknowledging that. I’m glad you also reminded me about the flexibility aspect. The idea of providing different options is great. Then the other aspect of flexibility is that a lot of authors want to have their podcast appearances grouped around a book launch.

First of all, I think that’s not always realistic because I know you, for example, record your episodes way in advance. I also have a backlog of episodes. There are a whole bunch of considerations for podcast hosts about how they order the podcasts.

For example, I might have had a couple of episodes that are focused on publishing, and now I want to make sure that I get back to craft. So I need the flexibility to do that. Being insistent about when your episode airs is not good form.

I also think, in general, there is a benefit to not grouping a lot of podcast appearances around a book launch.

The danger is that if I was pitching podcasts to promote one of my mystery novels, I might pitch a bunch of mystery reader-focused podcasts, and if I landed them all around the launch of the book, it’s very likely that a lot of those listeners overlap and they may be hearing me on several podcasts in a short period of time.

Now, if you have different aspects you can address about your book, then you can make sure that even if someone hears you on several podcasts, they’re not hearing the same thing over and over again. But still, for podcast hosts, it’s not appealing to know that their show is number four of seven appearances you have lined up.

So you can really make a benefit out of what might initially seem to be a challenge by not trying to group all your appearances around a launch.

Jo: I absolutely agree, although it’s a double-edged sword, especially these days with Kickstarter, because people do want things within a window. So maybe say to the host, “This is my window.”

As we record this, my show’s booked out for the next six months. I get all the time, “My launch is next week.” I’m like, this just doesn’t work. We put this in the calendar four months ago.

Let’s be really brutal about it. I got a pitch even this week that said, “I’m still writing my first book, and I would love to come on your podcast to talk about writing.” I literally didn’t know what to say to this person. Maybe you could give us some tough love, Matty.

Why is that not a good pitch, and why is that person maybe not expert enough for a show?

Matty: Well, first of all, they’re clearly not conveying any value that you or your audience are going to get. I suppose there could be podcasts out there that focus on early creators and what their experiences are.

I can imagine a podcast where the host is more like offering advice to somebody early in their career, and they’re looking for guests who are willing to have that kind of conversation with them, but obviously, that’s not The Creative Penn Podcast.

A lot of times, podcasters, just as with agents in the traditional publishing world, will post what they accept. The advice is, if they say they’re looking for thrillers and you’ve written a cozy, then don’t pitch them because you’re wasting your time and theirs.

The same thing with podcasts. If the host has posted what they’re looking for, then don’t pitch them if you don’t meet that requirement.

Even people who are representing well-known organizations that are clearly coming on a podcast to encourage people to use their products need to be able to focus on providing that value. I’m going to use Damon Courtney of BookFunnel as an example. I’ve interviewed Damon for The Indy Author Podcast.

Obviously, Damon has an understandable interest in educating people about BookFunnel, but we had a great conversation that never really mentioned BookFunnel until the very end, when I gave him the opportunity to let people know about it, because he had great information to share about cross-promotion and how to get the word out about your book.

I think everybody should follow Damon’s example. If you’re providing that value, then people are going to come to the product or book you’re hoping they will get to.

Jo: Damon is a great example of a very entertaining and engaging speaker. He’s got an interesting voice, he’s very animated, so he brings a lot of personality as well. I think that is important.

Let’s just give people some other tips.

You do have to know what you are doing, and you are only a good interview for the host if you’ve done this before.

Someone once sent a wonderful pitch, and I was like, “This is a great pitch. Come on the show.” Then when we turned on the recording, it was very clear this person had never done an interview before.

It was so bad I had to stop the interview and say, “Look, I just think you need some more practice at this. This is a really good topic, and I’m really interested. How about you come back in six months? In the meantime, go practice and do some other interviews.”

You and I have been doing this for a long time. There is a hierarchy of podcasts. There are brand new podcasts that maybe only have a couple of episodes and are new, and then there are long-running podcasts that have a bigger audience.

How can people work their way up to bigger podcasts and also get experience so they feel more confident giving interviews on shows, radio, and TV?

Matty: One tip I would share is that if you’re starting to pitch podcasts and you don’t have other interviews to point them to, which should be part of a pitch letter, you can create a demo reel.

I got one pitch years ago from J.W. Judge, and he sent me a video where it was his pitch, personalized to me, in video format. He said, “Hi, Matty. I write as J.W. Judge, and I would love to join you on The Indy Author Podcast to talk about these things.”

It was great because at that point, he didn’t have any other interviews to point me to, but he was very clearly comfortable on camera, had everything set up, and was engaging. I appreciated the time he had spent making this specific pitch for me.

If you are really uncomfortable with the concept, I think there are a couple of things you can do. One is to be an enthusiastic podcast listener. As with any kind of content, you are most successful doing it well if you enjoy consuming the content before you start trying to create it.

That can provide comfort, especially if you’re becoming familiar with a specific podcast that you want to pitch yourself to, because you’ll understand the rhythm of it, the tone, and the gestalt of the podcast. I think there are certain expectations that podcast listeners develop about how a podcast interview works.

Also, practice with people you know. Find someone you can sit down with over coffee and say, “Hey, here are some questions that I would love to be able to answer as a podcast guest. Let’s chat through them.” Do that a couple of times with a couple of different friends and refine your answers each time.

The great thing about that is you’re sitting right across the table from them and you can kind of see when their eyes start to glaze over and when they’re sitting forward and more engaged. You do less of the first thing and more of the second.

Once you have done those preparatory steps, podcasts can be really nice because you’re not in front of an audience.

Obviously, you hope that there will be an audience, but unlike speaking in front of a group at your local library, it can feel like you’re just chatting with the host, especially if you have a proficient host who’s good at making guests feel comfortable. It can be a good entrée to other speaking engagements.

Jo: I just want to comment on that video thing. Do not send me videos, anybody, because I literally never watch videos and will not watch them!

When people send me a link to a video, I think it’s a scam. What I would say is have an author website.

One of the first things I will do if someone pitches me is go and look at their author website.

It is amazing how many times something’s broken or it’s just not professional. You can have a landing page, like your author website name, forward slash media, and you could put a video there. Then I can choose to watch that video on a website as opposed to through my email.

The other thing is, I always have notes. I always send questions before every interview. I think that’s part of being an introvert and needing a lot of preparation.

ChatGPT is very good for this. If you say to ChatGPT, “I’m going on Matty Dalrymple’s The Indy Author Podcast. Tell me about Matty and some of her catchphrases and some of the things she likes. How does my book overlap with Matty’s interests? What are some of the things that her audience would like?” That’s a really good prompt.

Then, just on the notes, I have notes as a host and as a guest, but a big tip: do not read the notes!

Matty: Over time, I’ve evolved to an approach where I communicate with the guest and we land on an overall topic. When I ask them to schedule, I use Calendly, and one of the questions in there is to provide five subtopics related to the general topic that we’ve discussed.

They provide those, so they can prepare for those subtopics, and it just gives us some sort of points in the conversation. Generally, I find that sufficient because as a host, I’m standing in for the listener.

So if Damon’s coming on the podcast to talk about cross-promotion, by having five guiding points for our conversation that I can ask him questions about, I feel like that’s sufficient for my needs.

But it’s a great point that the more you can get insight into the preparation process of your host, the more you can be serving them by making that process as easy for them as possible.

Mark and I talk about the three P’s: politeness, professionalism, and preparedness, and the importance of these in your interactions.

If they ask you to provide a list of URLs for your social media sites, then don’t just provide them with your handle; actually provide them with a link. If they want a bio that’s 100 words, don’t send them 500.

Every way that you don’t comply with what they ask for, you’re just making their lives a little harder. For many podcast hosts, this is a labor of love. You can’t interact with them as if they were a service provider to you.

If you think about hiring an editor, you and the editor have come to an agreement, you’re paying them money, and for that, you expect certain deliverables. You can’t go into an interaction with a podcast host with that mindset because you really have to recognize they are doing you a favor, even if they’re getting benefits for themselves.

My guess is that very few podcast hosts are making money from this. They’re doing this as a service to the community.

Jo: And even more than that, I do make money from this podcast, so it is part of my business, but I’ve been doing this for 16 years. At least seven of those years, it was not monetized.

We put our time into connecting with an audience, and listeners come back to a show for the host.

They might listen to a guest, but they come back for the host. The trust of our audience is what I value so highly, which is why I cannot bring somebody who doesn’t bring value to the show.

I’m not going to interview someone unless I’m like, “That is going to help the audience.” We’ve spent years building up trust with our audiences so they know what they’re going to get when they listen to our show.

Now, you mentioned Damon Courtney from BookFunnel, who we’ve both met at events. You and I met at ThrillerFest, about a decade or so ago. This is another tip. We mentioned friends before; both of us have co-written with Mark, who is a long-term friend. We met on Twitter originally, and then we met in person.

How can people develop authentic relationships that can possibly develop into things like this?

It is much easier for you to say, “I’ve got this book coming out, can I come on your show?” than it is for a blind pitch. How can people do that authentically? The book does talk about connections as well.

Matty: I’m realizing that there’s a connections aspect to every nonfiction book that I’ve written for authors.

This is so interesting to me that I think my next book is going to be specifically on the connections that authors and other creatives can develop with the audience they want to reach, but also the real value of making those among your creative colleagues.

I think there are just general tips that can lead to podcast appearances and lots of other benefits, and I’m going to go back again to value. If you meet somebody at a conference and they’re a short fiction writer, and you’ve been thinking about putting together an anthology of short fiction, that is something you can offer them.

Even things like interactions on social media. When I got that video from J.W. Judge, I had already met him. I had had interactions with him, so I could feel comfortable that it wasn’t spam.

If I see people who I recognize as being Patreon patrons or somebody who follows me on social media and comments in a productive way on my posts, that just paves the way to good feelings.

If I have a whole list of potential podcast guests I’m looking at and there’s a name I recognize and I’ve already had a good experience with them, then that obviously paves the way to me wanting to say yes more than no to that pitch.

So fully understanding where your audience and interests and the audience and interests of your creative colleagues overlap can open up fantastic opportunities for podcast appearances and a whole lot of other things, whether that’s co-authored books or just a collaborative friend that you may be able to provide mutual benefit to.

Jo: Just to come back on the authentic connection, as we said, you and I met a decade ago at ThrillerFest as thriller writers. There was no transactional thing going on. We met as peers at a writer’s conference. That’s what I would say to people—

Go to conferences, meet people, and make genuine relationships. You never know what they’re going to turn into years later.

It’s not a case of, “Oh, nice to meet you. Can I come on your podcast?”

Matty: Right, and that idea of not treating it as transactional is so important. This is where I think that even if you’ve gone through all the earlier processes of doing your research, finding the right podcasts, making your pitch, preparing for the interview, and conducting it with all the best practices.

What a lot of podcast guests do is they sit back afterwards and say, “Phew, glad that went well. Now I’m onto the next thing.” I think that’s a very transactional attitude.

If that’s where you feel like the transaction has ended, you are really under-representing the benefit you can gain from it and the benefit you can provide.

Do those things to keep that relationship alive. If you are speaking on evergreen content, then every six months, maybe re-post on social media, “Oh, you might want to go back and look at this conversation I had with Jo.”

Make sure that you, as the podcast host, know that I’m doing that, that I’m continuing to point people to your work. Nurturing that relationship with a host can pay you back way more than just that one transactional interview appearance.

Jo: Last question, as we’re almost out of time. You have your long-running podcast, The Indy Author, your co-author Mark LeFebvre has his long-running Stark Reflections, and I have this long-running show. Now some people will say, “Oh, well, it’s all right for you lot, but now it’s too late to start a show.”

I’ve just rebooted my Books and Travel podcast, and I think we need new voices more than ever.

Why do you keep podcasting, and any tips for those who want to start their own show?

Matty: Well, I would first point people to my book, The Indy Author’s Guide to Podcasting for Authors. In that, I walk through what is really driving you to think about hosting a podcast. You want to make sure you think through your goals and if they’re realistic before you venture into that.

The primary reason that I keep doing The Indy Author Podcast is because those relationships I build up are so worthwhile for me. I first met Mark because I was a listener to the Stark Reflections Podcast.

An interaction I had with him related to a topic he talked about on that podcast is what led to our first co-authored book. It later led to me inviting Mark to be an advisor for ALLi. I feel like that connection we built long ago through Mark’s podcast has paid off.

Michael La Ronn and I have now co-authored two books together, and that has been based on many appearances that Michael has made on my podcast. It’s that idea that if I’m really interested in whatever the topic is, I’m developing a network of people that I can reach out to.

So I continue doing it because of the learning opportunities it offers me, the community-building opportunities it offers me, and because I just feel good about paying it back to the community. I feel as if, if I’m gaining these benefits from my guests, then I want to share those benefits with my listeners as well.

Jo: Yes, I totally agree. From my Books and Travel show, what I realized as I rebooted it is that it enabled me to write my memoir, Pilgrimage.

A lot of the episodes had helped me shape what that book became, and even though I didn’t necessarily realize it at the time, it made a huge difference to me.

One of my reasons for rebooting it again is because I have a book that’s gestating on English gothic cathedrals, and I’ve got another one on the idea of home. I am interviewing people whose books I’m reading as book research on that show, and I’m so sure that it’s going to help me to bring those books into the world.

That show is not about the writing process or publishing or book marketing. I want to make sure people know that those podcasts are also wonderful.

I would recommend people start shows on what they are really passionate about, where other people are also passionate. Yes, you are a writer, but there are lots of things that intersect with that.

Where can people find you and your podcast and your books online?

Matty: If they would like to listen to The Indy Author Podcast, that is “Indy” with a Y. If they’d like to find out more about all my nonfiction work, they can go to TheIndyAuthor.com. If they would like to find out about my fiction work, they can go to MattyDalrymple.com, and that’s “Matty” with a Y.

Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks for your time, Matty. That was great.

Matty: Thanks so much, Jo.

The post How To Pitch Podcasts And Be A Great Podcast Guest With Matty Dalrymple first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Author: Joanna Penn

/ Jun 22, 2025 / Comments Off on How To Pitch Podcasts And Be A Great Podcast Guest With Matty Dalrymple

How to Write Different Character Arcs for the Same Character (Part 2 of 2)

One of the most exciting challenges in storytelling is writing characters who grow over time—not just within a single story, but across several. Whether you’re working on a series or revisiting a familiar protagonist in a new standalone, the question inevitably arises: How do you create different character arcs for the same character without repeating yourself? How do you honor what’s come before while still offering readers something new? In many ways, this is where character development becomes the most rewarding—when you’re not just building a compelling arc, but an evolving journey.

Last month, we did a bit of exploring about how to vary your character arcs by using the Enneagram system to identify different internal conflicts for characters with different personality types. We also talked about how pairing Enneagram insights with the archetypal Life Cycle can generate arcs that are not only distinct but also deeply resonant. However, as I mentioned last week in the first installment in this two-part series, the more I sat with that discussion, the more I realized there was another layer we hadn’t fully uncovered: what happens when you’re writing different character arcs for the same character?

The reader question that originally inspired these discussions (about how to use the Enneagram’s nine types to avoid repetitive Lies the Character Believes) sparked a larger reflection, not just on personality theory, but on long-term character development. If you’re writing a series or revisiting a character across multiple stories, you’ve likely asked yourself: How do I keep this arc feeling fresh? What else can this character learn, face, or become? The challenge isn’t just variety for its own sake. Rather, it’s about honoring the integrity of your characters while continuing to push their evolution in meaningful ways.

Last week, I offered six progressive systems you can use to help you chart long-term serial character arcs. This week, I want to dig into some general principles for approaching a character’s journey as an unfolding process that stretches beyond a single arc.

In This Article:

How to Write Different Character Arcs for the Same Character: Write Different Themes

Let’s start by exploring the two different approaches you might find yourself in when writing multiple books. The first is the possibility that you are writing totally different character arcs for each new story. This might be because you’re writing an entirely new cast of characters and don’t want to repeat yourself; or it could be because you’re writing an episodic series in which you want to explore new plots and arcs in each installment.

In either case, the simplest rule of thumb when wanting to write different character arcs for the same character is to focus on exploring different external aspects. Basically: write a different plot. A relatively good example of this is the MCU, which featured dozens of stories set in the same story world. The series often succeeded in creating varied character arcs by offering varied or unexpected plots.

>>Click here to read The Do’s and Don’ts of Storytelling According to Marvel

For Example:

Tony Stark’s themes of escapist irresponsibility created very different themes from Peter Parker’s mistakes of teenage naivety.

Spider-Man Homecoming Tom Holland

Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017), Sony Pictures, Marvel Studios.

Here are a few more tools you can use to help you accomplish this variation.

1. Robert McKee’s Thematic Square

Story by Robert McKee

Story by Robert McKee (affiliate link)

Plot is tied to character arc which is tied to theme. The Thematic Square is a storytelling tool created by Robert McKee in his book Story that helps writers explore theme from multiple angles by identifying not only the central value (e.g., love) and its opposite (e.g., hate), but also a contrary value (e.g., indifference) and its negation (e.g., self-hatred). In a single story, this can help you create layered moral complexity and richer character conflict. However, by exploring a different quadrant of the square in different stories, you can visit various thematic neighborhoods within the same world from story to story.

2. Explore Different Archetypal Roles (Beyond the Life Cycle)

In addition to the continuity of the archetypal Life Cycle (which I mentioned last week and which you can read more about in my book Writing Archetypal Character Arcs), you can also focus on other ancillary archetypes. For example, exploring how your protagonist manifests the Trickster aspects of persoanlity in one story, the Rebel in another, and the Caregiver in still another can create opportunities for wildly different character arcs. Here’s a quick list of possibilities:

  • The Trickster – Brings chaos, humor, and unexpected change, often disrupting the status quo.
  • The Ally – Supports others through trials as a loyal companion.
  • The Shapeshifter – Changes form or allegiance, often creating doubt and intrigue.
  • The Innocent – Seeks happiness and safety, often symbolizing purity or naiveté.
  • The Orphan – Craves belonging and connection after experiencing loss or abandonment.
  • The Rebel – Challenges norms and fights against injustice or oppression.
  • The Sage – Pursues truth and knowledge, often as a detached observer.
  • The Creator – Builds, innovates, or brings visions into reality.
  • The Caregiver – Protects and nurtures others, often sacrificing personal needs.

3. Explore Different Backstory Ghosts

Finally, as you seek to generate new and different character arcs throughout your series, remember that the catalyst for any character arc is the character’s backstory Ghost (sometimes called the wound). To explore different character arcs for the same character, look at different catalyzing events in your character’s past. This is a common (although often overdone) approach for TV series. When they finish one story arc and need to pursue a fresh angle, they will often reveal new and unexpected events in the characters’ pasts that link them to new conflicts.

For Example:

After wrapping up its initial storyline and associated character arcs in Season 5, Supernatural extended its run by introducing new backstory elements, notably the main characters’ reaction to secrets in their family’s past, including the fact that their mother had been a Hunter before meeting their father.

Supernatural Sam Dean John Winchester

Supernatural (2005-2020), The CW.

How to Deeply Develop a Single Theme: Listen to Your Characters

What if you’re writing a series with an overarching plot that goes deep with a thematically cohesive character arc for your protagonist? In that case, how can you keep each story’s exploration of this overarching theme fresh and interesting, while also advancing the bigger arc?

The first thing to remember is that, in any story or series of stories, the thematic Truth a character learns (and therefore the successive Lies the Character Believes that must be overcome) exists along an ever-evolving spectrum. Therefore, even though the character may learn some version of an “ultimate” Truth by the story’s end, that Truth will be built of many smaller realizations and epiphanies along the way.

To progress that thematic throughline in a way that feels both realistic and also deep and nuanced, the most important trick is simply to listen to your characters. Really, this means listen to yourself. Listen to your own deep, innate knowing of how personal change occurs and what questions, roadblocks, sacrifices, and triumphs are likely to feel resonant along the way.

Here are a few tips and tricks for deepening your theme from book to book in a series.

1. Explore Different Inner Facets

In any dramatic personal change (and therefore in any dramatic character arc) many different facets of the person will be affected. Depending on the length of your series, you have the opportunity to go deep with many different ways your characters are affected by the changes they are undergoing. For example, in one story you might explore how the change impacts the protagonist’s relationships, while in another you might explore how it impacts the protagonist’s experience of hope versus despair, while still another might delve into issues of ongoing personal integrity in the face of the changes the character is confronting.

2. Change Up the Supporting Cast

One of the easiest ways to open new opportunities for exploring different facets of your characters is to change up the supporting cast. The thematic elements that arise from your protagonist’s interaction with a parent will be very different from the thematic elements that arise from your protagonist’s interaction with a love interest or frenemy. The only caution here is to make sure that in changing up the cast dynamics, you are not shortchanging the screentime of any key relationships that may, in fact, be the primary reason readers are there in the first place.

3. Explore Consequences From Previous Books

The juiciest part of any series is its unparalleled ability to go deep with its own consequences. If you’re uncertain how your character’s arc might be different in a subsequent book, start by asking yourself:

  • What’s changed?
  • What did the characters do or have done to them in the previous book that has consequences?
  • How did the conclusion of the character arc in the previous book change how the character views the world or him/herself?

Start pulling threads and exploring what new thematic avenues may now be open to you.

For Example:

The BBC show Poldark was particularly good at this from season to season. Its protagonist, Ross Poldark, rarely made a decision that didn’t have unforeseen but still realistic consequences. One example is his secret purchase of his cousin’s widow’s shares in his then-worthless mine, in order to gift her with needed money. When that mine later became profitable, he was accused by his nemesis of underhanded dealings in “stealing” from her.

Ross Poldark Aiden Turner

Poldark (2015-2019), BBC One.

4. Emphasize Different Emotions

Finally, one of the easiest ways to tap into new and different character arcs for the same character is to explore different emotions. If anger predominated in one book, then perhaps joy or love may be the focus of another. If confidence and self-realization showed up in one book, then despair or disillusionment may follow. Particularly, think about how the “positive” or “negative” charge of one emotional theme can arc into its opposite. For example, in a long series, a defeat may follow a victory may follow a defeat.

Obviously, no one book should focus exclusively on a single emotion. But you can go deep with one emotion as a way of shining its particular shade of color onto the larger stage of your story’s and series’ themes.

***

Exploring different character arcs for the same character invites writers into some of the richest possibilities storytelling has to offer. It asks you to think deeply about the long-term consequences of change, how different parts of a character’s psyche can take center stage at different times, and how transformation itself evolves. Whether you’re crafting a series, revisiting an old character, or simply playing with the idea of continuity across your stories, this kind of narrative layering can open up new creative depths for both you and your readers.

In Summary

Writing different arcs for the same character requires more than just inventing new external conflicts. It demands an understanding of how transformation can unfold in complex, realistic, and meaningful ways across time. By focusing on how plot, character, and theme create and influence one another, you can gain deeper insights into how to naturally and resonantly evolve your character through multiple different character arcs.

Key Takeaways

  • Different arcs for the same character are best built around new thematic focuses and inner conflicts, as well as new plots.
  • Tools like the Thematic Square and archetypal roles (such as Trickster and Caregiver) can offer helpful variety and depth in mapping believable inner change.
  • Long-term character growth feels most authentic when arcs build on each other through a deep understanding of personal transformation and thematic intent.
  • Revisiting a character can offer opportunities to explore consequences from past books, new emotional outlooks, and different relationship dynamics.

Want More?

Writing Your Story’s Theme (Amazon affiliate link)

If you’re fascinated by the deeper structure behind character arcs—and especially how they connect to theme—check out my book Writing Your Story’s Theme. In it, I explore how character change is naturally intertwined with plot and theme. These “big three” naturally work together to create cohesive and resonant stories. Whether you’re writing standalone stories or weaving a multi-arc journey across a series, your characters’ emotional evolution is most impactful when it’s inextricably tied to the thematic heart of your story. Writing Your Story’s Theme offers a step-by-step approach to identifying, developing, and integrating theme at every stage of your story’s structure and your characters’ growth. It’s the perfect companion for writers who want their stories to resonate on every level. It’s available in paperback, e-book, and audiobook.

Wordplayers, tell me your opinions! Have you ever written different character arcs for the same character across multiple stories? What challenges or discoveries did you encounter in keeping those arcs fresh and meaningful? Tell me in the comments!

Click the “Play” button to Listen to Audio Version (or subscribe to the Helping Writers Become Authors podcast in Apple Podcast, Amazon Music, or Spotify).

___

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The post How to Write Different Character Arcs for the Same Character (Part 2 of 2) appeared first on Helping Writers Become Authors.

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Author: K.M. Weiland | @KMWeiland

/ Jun 16, 2025 / Comments Off on How to Write Different Character Arcs for the Same Character (Part 2 of 2)

Finding Your Voice, Writing Across Genre And Loving Book Marketing With Betsy Lerner

How can you find your voice through writing in different genres and mediums over the years? How can you shift your mindset around book marketing, whatever your age? Betsy Lerner shares her experience of writing and books over decades in the publishing industry.

In the intro, Going Local: Authors on the payoffs and pitfalls of hometown sales and promotion [Self-Publishing Advice]; Selling Books in Person at Live Events;
Artist = Entrepreneur [Steven Pressfield]; Ecosystems come and go [Seth Godin]; 1000 True Fans [Kevin Kelly].

Plus, Exeter Cathedral, Death Valley, a Thriller; Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition; and The AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinar.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Betsy Lerner is an award-winning editor, literary agent and the author of fiction, non-fiction and memoir. Her book for writers is The Forest for the Trees: An Editor’s Advice to Writers.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

  • The publishing hierarchy—and the love of books that brings us together
  • Tips to overcome your perception of writers vs. your own potential
  • Balancing the desire for success and the fear of failure
  • How writing can help one cope with grief
  • Balancing editorial feedback and maintaining creative confidence
  • Why publishers want their authors to have a pre-existing platform
  • Embracing TikTok and BookTok at any age
  • Navigating the current publishing industry

You can find Betsy at BetsyLerner.com or on Tiktok at @BetsyLerner.

Transcript of Interview with Betsy Lerner

Joanna: Betsy Lerner is an award-winning editor, literary agent and the author of fiction, non-fiction and memoir. Her book for writers is The Forest for the Trees: An Editor’s Advice to Writers.
So welcome to the show, Betsy.

Betsy: Thank you so much.

Joanna: Oh, it’s great to have you on. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you have managed to experience almost every aspect of publishing across your career.

Betsy: Publishing was actually not my first dream. I went to NYU for film school my freshman year, and I was “invited to leave” after the first year. That was devastating.

I was not kicked out of school completely. I finished and got my degree in English, and then, like most English majors, was at a complete loss of what to do. I could not get a publishing job because I couldn’t pass a typing test, which was required back in 1982.

So I did a stop gap, and I worked at an investment bank for a couple of years in the library. I got it together to apply to graduate school, and I went for my MFA in poetry.

At that time, I interned at a literary agency. That was really my first bite into the publishing world. I absolutely loved it.

I loved being around writers and books and book jackets and galleys and all the accoutrements of that world.

So when I finished my MFA, I went into publishing. I climbed the editorial ladder, as one does in the States. I’m not quite sure if it’s the same in the UK. You go from being an editorial assistant to an assistant editor, editor, senior editor, etc.

I really thrived and loved it very much. I became an agent when I had my child, and pre-pandemic there was no flexibility in the publishing houses. You couldn’t even work at home for a half a day, let alone remote work. So I eventually crossed over to agenting, really for the flexibility of my time.

Over these 40 years, I managed to write a few books every few years or so. I think the writer in me always sort of played second fiddle to the editor or agent in me. It always sort of came out one way or another.

Joanna: I love that. You said how much you found a home in publishing because you love books and all the things of being around books.

That’s what I wanted people to remember. Often, there’s always this stuff about, oh, this editor or this publishing house or this agent, or whatever. People always want to moan. We’re just all book people, right?

We all love books. That’s why, despite all the ups and downs, we all want to be in this industry.

Betsy: Absolutely.

There’s, in my mind, sort of this hierarchy where everybody wants to be the writer. Then next best is the editor. Then next best is the marketing, publicity, sales person.

Also, all the wonderful designers and illustrators and people who make book jackets. Everybody is all in it together, but I’ve often found that the people behind the scenes get very little credit.

I always, as an editor and even as an agent, always really loved and respected all the people all up and down the chain who contributed. Yes, all book people, big readers, movie goers, pop culture people.

I’ve had a wonderful 40 years in the industry, even with all the ups and downs, and there are many downs.

Joanna: Yes, we’ll come back to those. You said that everyone wants to be the writer, like that’s the first thing. In the book, you have this wonderful line:

“When I entered the business, I believed that writers were exalted beings.”

That made me smile because I remember feeling like that. I always was a reader, and I thought I could never be a writer, because they’re so special, and it stopped me.

So what can you say to people listening to encourage people, like if they’re still feeling the separation between what they think a writer is and the truth of it?

Betsy: Well, the answer is very complex, but it’s also very simple.

You have to write.

There are so many people who say they want to be writers and dream of being writers and have stories inside them, etc, etc.

The fact is if you aren’t actually writing, whatever form it takes, it’s not going to happen.

It’s a craft and it takes a lot of time and practice.

So I always tell people, do you write diaries? Do you keep notebooks? Are you writing blogs? Are you doing Substack? What writing are you actually doing?

It doesn’t all have to be prose. I wrote screenplays for years. I blogged for years. All of that was in the development of my voice and in my ability to story tell. Then, of course, all the editing that I did, I really learned what goes into making a book.

The key thing is simply writing and understanding that all the writing you do is either in practice of the professional writing you might do, or it’s just who you are and how you express yourself.

Joanna: Well, it’s interesting there. You talk there about you have to write and the different types of writing, but, of course — 

You were 64 when you wrote your first novel.

You’ve written loads of different things. Tell us about that. There’s this idea that you have to be young and beautiful to do your debut novel, right?

The people who seem to get all the press are the young debut writers. So tell us a bit more about that experience.

Betsy: When I was in my 20s, if I could have published a book, I’m sure I would have. I did not have it together. I went into publishing really, as I said, sort of as a default.

I did have my MFA in poetry, and many of my fellow poets were going off to write and teach. I just didn’t have access to any of those opportunities, nor did I think I would be particularly good at it.

Fast forward, it was the pandemic. I did have more time on my hands. I had also just come through an extremely traumatic time in my life. My niece and nephew were killed by a drunk driver, then my mom passed away, and then my best friend committed suicide. Those tragedies all happened in the space of four or five months. I was in some sort of shock.

I was in deep grief, and I guess I wrote my way out of it.

I just sat down one day, opened my laptop and wrote the first words of the book, which are: “Here are the ways I could start this story.”

I wrote for seven months, four or five hours a day, really until my hands cramped. I just poured this book out of myself. I don’t think magic happened and I wrote a novel, I do think it is based on 40 years of keeping diaries, blogging, developing my voice. Writing those screenplays really taught me how to write plot.

So I think all the writing I did came together in this novel in my mid-60s. I was very fortunate that I was able to get it published. I found a small publisher who was able to say, instead of being a hot, young debut novelist, I was a senior, late bloomer. I had all this experience.

We were able to do a bunch of publicity around the fact that I was a literary agent turned novelist. So my age sort of worked for me, both in the experience of writing and the attention I was able to get.

Joanna: That’s a great way to put it. Obviously those tragedies are awful, and it’s amazing that you managed to write your way out of it, as you said. Just for that, is the book about surviving tragedy?

How did those things that happened to you emerge in the writing?

Or do you think it was just an entirely different thing? You better tell us the title as well.

Betsy: Well, the title is Shred Sisters. It’s really a book about two sisters. The older sister has bipolar illness, and the younger sister is the narrator.

It’s coming-of-age and how she lived under the shadow of this very destructive, and yet charismatic sister. It doesn’t involve the tragedies at all, except for the fact that a number of people do die in the book.

It is a way, I guess, that I really coped with a lot of grief, but it’s a separate story from that. I feel that all of those events are deeply connected to my writing fiction for the first time.

Joanna: Well, it’s interesting because you’ve also written several memoirs, including Food and Loathing, which I saw that title and was like, oh my goodness, that is such a powerful title. That’s about disordered eating.

The Bridge Ladies is about your mum. You’ve clearly delved into really personal things before. This book, The Forest for the Trees, is also really personal.

So how do you do that? I do it now, but I know how hard it is for people to really put themselves out there in words.

Fear of judgment is a big thing. How did you get over that for your memoir and everything you write?

Betsy: I think because I kept diaries from the age of nine or 10, daily diaries for my whole life. Then when I became interested in poetry, it was the confessional poets who really drew me in. Sylvia Plath and Anne Sexton and Robert Lowell were among my favorite writers.

So I’ve always been interested in first-person writing, in intimate writing, and confessional writing. Then as an editor, I really became known for working with authors on their memoirs.

I worked on Prozac Nation by Elizabeth Wurtzel and Autobiography of a Face by Lucy Grealy. I eventually became the agent and editor for Patti Smith’s Just Kids and all of her memoirs. It’s really what I most love and gravitate towards.

When I started to write The Forest for the Trees, I didn’t see that as an entirely personal book. I was writing in my persona as an editor. Then when I did write Food and Loathing, I think I just felt that it was my time to write.

I wanted to write my story. I felt bold. I didn’t want to pull back, really, If I was going to do it, I was going to do it—I guess is what I was thinking.

Do I now sometimes regret some of the things I wrote in that book? Possibly. I had a lot of bravado, I guess. I had worked on so many memoirs, and I just thought I wanted to tell my story. I was lucky that I had the chance to publish it.

Joanna: It’s so interesting. You keep saying that you’ve been lucky to publish or you were lucky to find a publisher. You’ve been in publishing for 40 years, and you’re an agent.

How is it that somebody like you would even struggle to find a publisher?

Betsy: Well, I guess it’s more that my ego, my self-esteem, all come from being an editor and an agent. If you meet me on a plane and you say, what do you do? I’ll say, I’m a literary agent. I would never say I’m a writer.

It doesn’t matter how many books I have published. It’s just not my identity, and I don’t know why that is. I mean, it’s a shame, I should own it. I still feel more comfortable behind the desk.

I do feel very lucky. A lot of people in publishing write and want to be published. I just don’t take it for granted. Yes, I had connections. I was able to find an agent more easily than someone who’s not in the business.

I still think it’s a privilege to find people who are willing to actually pay you and work with you and put your work out there.

Joanna: Interesting. Well, then coming back to your work editing memoirs. If you have a writer who brings you a manuscript and you’re like, they have not let it all out—

How do you encourage a writer to be more personal in their writing?

Betsy: If I’ve accepted a book and I’m working with the person, we have an understanding that I would expect certain revisions from them. I would be very clear about what they would be.

That might include going deeper in certain parts and investigating certain questions that are left clearly unsaid or holes in the manuscript.

I recently read a manuscript by a woman with a child with a disability, and she never described what the disability was. Yet there was something very moving about the book, and I said to her, this can’t be a question mark if you’re going to write this book. So that was a very obvious one.

Sometimes it’s just more subtle. Sometimes you say too much, actually, and understatement can be more effective. It’s not necessarily saying more, it’s just crafting. Memoirs are crafted. They propose to be the truth, but they’re really a work of art, in my opinion.

The quality of the writing is what makes people invested and believe in the story that they’re being given.

Joanna: Well, in another aspect of the book, you say —

“Most writers have very little choice in what they write about.”

You talk about the obsessions, and themes returning, and this finding your voice.

I remember finding this very difficult at the beginning of my career. Like, what is this finding your voice? So there might be people listening who feel that way. So how can writers identify these things?

Betsy: That’s such a good question. I think it’s organic, and it starts probably with what you gravitate towards as a reader. If you sit down to write science fiction, my guess is that you’ve read a ton of it as a kid and as a teenager.

You’ve immersed yourself in that world. It’s a world you love. It’s a world that sparks your own imagination.

I think I did a lot of personal writing because of how much I connected with books like The Bell Jar and Diary of Anne Frank and things like that when I was a girl.

So I think your voice is part of the world that you immerse yourself in. Becoming good at it really just takes a lot of practice, and getting feedback, and doing revisions, and putting in the hours, putting in the hard work.

It’s very unusual that somebody who’s never read in a certain genre is suddenly going to be great at that genre. At least in my experience, people write out of the worlds that they know.

Joanna: I guess with author voice, so this idea of creative confidence as well—like, I’m pretty confident in what is my J.F. Penn writing, which is my fiction and memoir brand. I know what is me, and I work with an editor, but she also knows me.

Now, I hear from people who work with editors, and there’s a real line between an editor trying to make your book better and an editor who you feel might be affecting your voice.

How can people listening ascertain where an editor would sit on that continuum and when an editor is a good fit?

Betsy: I’ve had many editors, and I would say everybody has added something of value. Certainly there were people who also stymied me with their notes, or even frightened me or put me off completely. I’ve had every experience.

Then with my novel, I had the most wonderful editor who completely helped me make the book better. They actually really taught me how to be a better writer in the process, which is something that has stayed with me even beyond working on that book.

It’s very intimidating if you’re a new writer and your editor tells you something, you think you have to do it. It takes a bit of spine to not do it.

Then are you doing that at your own peril? Are you being defensive? Are you not really listening? Or is the advice bad?

When you’re a beginning writer, it’s very difficult to parse all of that. It takes time and experience and even a little bit of luck to find the editor with whom you feel you’re really a hand in glove in what you’re doing.

I think a lot of people do suffer at the hands of editors. Then, of course, many people are extremely helped, then everything in the middle.

Joanna: Well, I think that’s the point—it’s not like the first editor you ever work with is it for the rest of your life. You will have different editors in your life. The relationships will be different, a bit like our friendships or partners or whatever. So yes, I think you kind of touched on that.

I also was interested, you have a lot in this book, The Forest for the Trees, around mindset. I particularly like this line: “The desire for success and the fear of failure run along a continuum.” So talk about that from your own perspective.

How have you balanced desire for success and the fear of failure?

Betsy: I love that question. It’s something I think about probably on a daily basis. I think that the act of writing, the desire to be in your own mind, in your own sort of playground, and the beautiful solitude of it all, is really what the heart of writing is all about.

At the same time, I would say most people are writing, even in a diary, with the hope of being read. So they’re very connected. When you read writers’ diaries, you can tell that they’re not just writing for themselves. It’s almost as if they have an audience in mind.

So I think that when we’re writing, it is about the desire to communicate, even though we really are writing alone, and in many ways for ourselves.

The ego can get very tied up in that. There are some writers who are obsessed with success. I work with one writer who’s a complete and total recluse, and never reads her reviews, and doesn’t want to know anything besides just getting her contract and getting her book out there. She does no publicity either, by the way, which makes it very difficult to publish her.

That’s what I mean about the continuum. There are some people who are so blinded by the desire for success that their work almost seems to be secondary.

Obviously, the best is to find some balance between your discipline, and love of writing, and the outcome for any book that you create, and how much energy you’re going to put into that, and how much the world is going to welcome it or not.

So many books get published with no fanfare at all, and it’s always just a very few every season that seem to get all the attention.

Writers have to learn how to live with those outcomes and see if they’re willing to keep going.

Joanna: How have your books gone in that way? Have you hit the success as a writer? I mean, you said before that you didn’t identify that way.

Do you feel like you are a successful writer, as well as an award-winning editor and all the other things you are?

Betsy: Yes, but I work very hard at it.

Part of why I was so drawn to your podcast, in fact, is that —

I love marketing. I love publicity. I love figuring out how to get the work out there.

I’ve mostly done that for my clients and my authors, but when I have published my books, with each consecutive book, I’ve gotten better and bolder at doing the marketing.

So with this novel, for instance, I pulled out all the stops. I did everything I humanly could. I even got on TikTok and befriended book influencers. I made fortune cookies with lines from the book inside and gave them out at readings.

I wrote hundreds of note cards to librarians and booksellers and people in the media that I had even the most tangential relationship with. I’ve been helping my authors for all of these years try to get attention for their books in every imaginable way possible.

With Forest for the Trees, with my first book, I did write to a ton of writing conferences and MFA programs and offered to give talks and send free copies and do that sort of thing. I am very proud of it because it’s still in print all these years later. I still hear from people that it’s helped them, and that’s so rewarding.

Joanna: Wow, everyone’s still reeling at your comment, “I love marketing.”

So yes, obviously you’re full of ideas of different kinds of things. Then you also mentioned this writer before who’s a recluse and doesn’t do any marketing. So how can writers listening change their attitude?

How can people learn to love marketing like you do, and be creative with it as you’ve obviously been?

Betsy: Well, it’s really difficult, since most writers do enjoy their solitude and may not be the most social people going. Some people just turn their nose up at marketing. People have such a strange idea of marketing and sales.

In my mind, what it all boils down to is communicating and figuring out that one-line pitch that can get people interested in your book, then just putting a lot of elbow grease into it.

I often use the metaphor of, if you were to open a store and you lovingly furnished it with all sorts of goods that you’ve hand-picked, and you’ve made the store so beautiful, but then all you did was put an open sign in the door—nobody’s really—maybe one or two people might walk in.

If you wanted a lot of customers, you’d have to do some outreach. So it’s just outreach.

It is a different head.

You have to be very sensitive to be a writer, but you also have to be sort of thick-skinned to get out there and sell your book and market your book.

These days, even the big publishers often don’t do all that much, and it really is up to the author if they want to get the word out.

Another thing I often ask writers too is, what are your goals? What do you want this book to do for you? How many copies do you think you want to sell? Do you want to use it as a calling card to get a job or to get speaking engagements?

Do you have a political agenda? Why are you writing this book? What do you want it to do in the world?

A lot of writers say, “I hadn’t thought about that.” So I say, think about that, and then let’s make a plan that’s commensurate with your goals.

Joanna: Yes, you said there that a lot of publishers don’t even do much marketing for books anymore.

I think certainly in the self-publishing and the independent publishing side of things, I hear often people say, “I don’t want to do any marketing, so I’ll just get a traditional publisher, and then they will do it all for me.” Right? Is that just not true anymore?

Betsy: It’s not true anymore. It’s not true at all. In fact —

Publishers these days are most drawn to authors who come with a platform —

either a large social media platform or an institutional platform, because that helps them sell their books. They’ve identified the market already.

It’s disheartening. I remember the first time I was agenting a book, and the editor, before even asking, “What is the title? Who is the author? What’s it about?” said, “What’s their platform?” I was so taken aback.

Another time, I heard an author, an editor, I was pitching a book, and I heard clicking, and I knew the editor was looking up the sales figures for the author rather than listening to my pitch about my passion for the book.

That’s when I knew—and I’d say that was about 10 years ago—the landscape had completely shifted from content-based material to platform-based material.

Joanna: I think people, even though we’re all book people, like we said at the beginning, people still have to make money in a business. I think it’s important that we think about that sales side, even though, as you said, it’s like a different head.

I do have to come back to TikTok, because I did actually go and look at your TikTok channel. I have basically refused to do TikTok. I’m like, I do audio as my main marketing channel, and I do a little bit of social media.

You’re on TikTok, so tell us about that. Why did you decide to jump in?

What kind of things do you do? And are you still doing it?

Betsy: Yes, I’m still doing it. I love it.

I went on out of curiosity, because as I said, the landscape was changing. As of about somewhere in the middle of COVID, people began saying that BookTok was the only thing moving the needle for selling books. Everyone saw the Colleen Hoover phenomenon, and then romantasy.

I started to recognize that it wasn’t just genre and romantasy, but literary books were also getting a big bump on BookTok. I decided I had to see what this was that everyone said was moving the needle, even though most people in publishing were not going on BookTok at all or getting their marketing teams excited about it.

Just a couple of publishers were at the vanguard. In any case, I wanted to learn about it as a literary agent to help my clients, but also because I had a novel coming out and thought maybe I could get some of these book influencers to talk about my book.

So I got on the platform, started learning, and started became part of the community by leaving comments on other BookTokers’ videos. Some dialogue started happening, and I reached out to many book influencers, asking if I could send them my galley.

A lot of them said yes and many posted about my book. So that was really exciting for me watching young people with tattoos and nose rings holding my little book and saying why they liked it so much. It was fantastic.

I also thought maybe I could create some content. I started reading snippets from my diaries from my 20s.

I found very quickly that I could build an audience, and many young people resonated with my diary entries and made them feel less alone in the world.

Most of my entries are all about being someone in their 20s who is sad and lost. Turns out there’s still a lot of lost and said people in their 20s out there.

Joanna: I was so impressed with your videos.

I feel—I don’t know, and this is totally about me, this is not about anyone else—but that I somehow have to do my hair and makeup. I know it’s not meant to be scripted, but to turn on a video and start talking or share bits of your diary as you do.

You have your face there and everything. You’re there. It’s not just your diaries. If people are worried, like me—

What would you say to people like me? Is it really worth it? Do people have to get over themselves?

Betsy: That’s a great question. When I first started trying on BookTok, I refused to be on camera. I was just posting these little literary tidbits of books that I liked. I was just messing around.

One of our clients, who’s big on BookTok, called me and said, “Your stuff is adorable, but you’re not getting any traction. You won’t get any unless you get on camera.”

I said, “No way, no way, no way.” About a month later, I saw her somewhere. She said, “So how are you doing on the platform?” I said, “I’m not getting anywhere. “

She said, “Are you going to get on camera or not?” I said, “I don’t think so.” She explained how my posts were all random and that —

To get traction, you have to pick a lane, and do something people know you for. Think of it as your own little TV show.

That’s when I thought, all right, maybe I’ll try it. What the hell?

By the way, nobody I know is on TikTok, so I had nothing to be worried about. That night, I went home and realized I have all these diaries. Maybe I can do this. That first post that I did went viral, so that was very encouraging. Not all posts go viral—many don’t.

I have built an audience. I have over 30,000 followers. My posts generally get a good reception. Every now and then, one goes viral. I find it extremely exciting. I’m a child. What can I say? I love attention. I love the app.

I’ve made some very good friends. Even in real life, I’ve met some of these BookTokers. They’re all young, and I just think they’re fantastic.

Joanna: I love that. It’s interesting because I got on Twitter, as it was back then, in 2009. For those first few years of being in Twitter, a lot of my friends in real life are people I met on Twitter back then. I built a lot of my business on Twitter.

Obviously, that platform has changed. That almost feels like what you’re talking about there with TikTok and BookTok. So I love to hear that. Hopefully, that encourages people of different ages. I always hear people say to me, it’s only for people in their 20s and 30s.

There really are a lot of different ages and demographics now, aren’t there?

Betsy: Absolutely. Also, I’m a big science person. Within TikTok, there’s everything under the sun, including STEMTok. I watch a lot of scientists talk about their work. I’ve even found clients on TikTok. We represent this incredible linguist called Etymology Nerd and sold his book.

I’m working with an ornithologist who has a fantastic following and is a wonderful communicator. Yes, there are a lot of cowboys dancing without their shirts on and kitten videos, that’s all there.

If you have a real interest, you’ll probably also find people making content, either there, or on YouTube, or even on Instagram now people are doing videos.

It is sort of the Wild West. There’s a lot out there, and it takes some time to figure out how to use the platform. I’m really happy to hear you found real friends through Twitter. I think people don’t understand that social networks are also about connecting.

The BookTokers who I’ve become friends with are people who, if I’d met them at a party, I would have loved to have met them. They’re young, vibrant, read tons of books, and have tons of opinions. Yes, and they’re not just talking about their knee replacements, and mortgages, and Medicare. I really appreciate that.

Joanna: I love that. You are really fun!

What I actually really enjoyed about your book is it’s very ‘voicey.’ I can hear your fun and your opinions, which I really like. I think that’s great. Obviously, people can check you out on TikTok.

I wanted to come back to publishing because in the book, you say,

“The cyclical nature of the publishing business, the brutality of the media, and the vagaries of the marketplace are things that we all have to get used to.”

So I wondered if you could maybe give us a perspective on the changes of the publishing industry that are still happening, and, in fact, even more so with AI. How can authors now navigate the industry?

Betsy: That’s such a big question. It’s so difficult. At least in the States, the biggest problem is when I entered publishing, there were about 40 publishers. Now they’re called the Big Five. It’s all been conglomerated.

There are many imprints within each major publisher, but they all basically run the same way and have the same mindset about publishing. People want either the hot, sexy debut author, or the author with the big platform, or the celebrity, or the CEO. That’s what the world really wants.

If you’re a literary writer or genre writer, you might have to make your way not looking at the big publishers in the beginning, as you develop your audience and grow as a writer.

Getting published by a major publisher isn’t the end-all and be-all anymore.

Even someone like Colleen Hoover started by self-publishing. There’s a real path outside of traditional publishing. I still work within traditional publishing. I still am able to break writers in, but it’s much more difficult that it used to be.

There’s much more scrutiny before a book is acquired. Authors just have to have a bigger platform or some real literary fairy dust that’s been sprinkled on them, either by other famous writers, or an MFA program, or publishing in a very high quality magazine.

I would just say that — 

You better really love writing, because it’s a long haul and it’s very difficult to sustain a career. So it just has to be what you have to do.

I’ve always written part time. I’ve always had my day job. I think most writers have to survive by also doing other jobs, unless you really break through.

So you just have to understand that you’re probably going to have to do other work to sustain yourself, but if writing is what you have to do, then you’ll find a way.

Joanna: You said earlier, every couple of years, you end up writing another book. So you clearly can’t help yourself.

Betsy: Exactly. For all the books I’ve published, I have many unfinished notebooks. I have many projects that have never seen the light of day. I’ve got seven screenplays—if there are any producers listening. I have an MFA collection of poetry that will never see the light of day.

That’s all fine, because that’s all of what you do to develop as a writer, and that goes into the books that you do eventually publish. All of the unpublished work is, to me, I’m as proud of that as I am of the published work. More than that, it sustained me and kept me going, because that’s really how I live.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where can people find you and your books online?

Betsy: Well, there’s always Amazon, of course. I love to direct people to Bookshop, which basically is also an online a bookseller that taps your local booksellers, which is fantastic. Also Indiebound.

I’m on TikTok at @BetsyLerner. I have my blog, which is BetsyLerner.com. That’s really a community of miserable writers coming to check in on the misery that I post.

Now, only maybe every few weeks, but I had posted for many, many years, and that’s all there in the archives. For any writing lonely hearts, I have a wonderful community of malcontents who read my blog.

Joanna: Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time, Betsy. That was great.

Betsy: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

The post Finding Your Voice, Writing Across Genre And Loving Book Marketing With Betsy Lerner first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Author: Joanna Penn

/ Jun 15, 2025 / Comments Off on Finding Your Voice, Writing Across Genre And Loving Book Marketing With Betsy Lerner

Book Discoverability In An Age Of AI. GEO For Authors With Thomas Umstattd Jr.

How will generative AI change search and book discoverability in the years ahead? How can you make sure your books and your author website can be found in AI tools like ChatGPT? Thomas Umstattd Jr. joins me to discuss Generative Engine Optimisation (GEO) and how it will replace traditional SEO marketing.

I first covered this topic in Dec 2023, How Generative Search Will Impact Book Discoverability in the Next Decade. As ever, I was early, but those changes are now starting to happen. Thomas recently covered the topic on his Novel Marketing Podcast on Does ChatGPT Recommend Your Book?

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This episode is supported by my patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Thomas Umstattd Jr. is the CEO of AuthorMedia.com, as well as an award-winning professional speaker, non-fiction author, and host of the Novel Marketing Podcast and the Christian Publishing Show.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

  • How authors can benefit from AI optimization
  • Principles authors need to keep in mind as search is changing
  • Different AI models and their capabilities
  • Making your author website LLM-friendly
  • How to utilize Goodreads to improve your GEO
  • The future of AI agents in book buying
  • Staying positive and curious in the ever-changing AI landscape

You can find Thomas at AuthorMedia.com.

Transcript of Interview with Thomas Umstattd Jr.

Joanna: Thomas Umstattd Jr. is the CEO of AuthorMedia.com, as well as an award-winning professional speaker, non-fiction author, and host of the Novel Marketing Podcast and the Christian Publishing Show. So welcome back to the show, Thomas.

Thomas: Thanks, Joanna, for having me.

Joanna: It’s great to have you back. Now, for everyone listening, you were on the show a few years back. So we’re going to dive straight into the topic today, which is based around a recent episode on your Novel Marketing Podcast on “AI Optimization For Authors: Does ChatGPT Recommend Your Book?”

I was like, yes, I really want to talk about this. Why did you decide to get into this topic now?

What did you see in the author community that made you want to help authors see AI differently?

Thomas: Well, what triggered this topic was actually the Google I/O Conference, where one of the features they were demoing was the ability to take a picture of a stack of books and then get recommendations on additional books that were like that book.

As somebody who spends a lot of time in tech world, books and authors are often the example that the tech people use to demonstrate new capabilities of AI models.

Often, unless people listen to your show, that new tech does not actually get translated to the author community. Most authors are not watching the Google IO Conference or even summaries of it.

Joanna: Except you and me!

Thomas: So I was like, oh, I need to do some tests with this. So I started testing different models to see how they would recommend books. I kind of realized, oh, this is already happening. People are already asking AI all the questions of their life.

Google search traffic is way down.

People are moving those big questions of their life conversations away from traditional search engines and towards AI interactions.

If you can get the AI to recommend your book, you’ll be well-positioned for ongoing sales in this new era.

If you’re holding on to ranking on Google search, or even Amazon search, as your only way of finding customers, sales are going to keep slipping, and you won’t understand why.

Joanna: It’s interesting. I have been using ChatGPT primarily since November ’22 when it first came out. I use it instead of Google.

So I have started to use Gemini again, but I mainly use ChatGPT. Also on my phone, it’s what I use. So what about your personal behavior?

Do you use a lot of AI for normal life that you once would have used Google for?

Thomas: I do.

In fact, AI has boosted my productivity so much that we’ve been able to launch a new podcast, a whole additional podcast, called Author Update. It is a news podcast once a week, just covering publishing news.

So much of the pieces of that, like taking the transcript and turning it into a blog, creating the timestamps for YouTube, creating the thumbnails for YouTube, creating the titles for YouTube. That’s all done by AI.

Different AI tools that I’ve built for each one of those pieces that two years ago would have been incredibly time consuming. There would have been no way we could have added yet another show to the mix.

Joanna: I didn’t know that. Interestingly, I have also brought back my Books and Travel Podcast, which I stopped doing a couple of years ago because it was too much work, and it’s not one that’s monetized.

I also brought it back in the last few months, because I was like, do you know what? I can now do so much of this with AI that it doesn’t matter so much.

Actually, one of the things with that show which is interesting, is a lot of the times I’m interviewing people with different accents. A lot of the speech to text, the transcription previously, has been very good with American men, but it hasn’t been so good with British women or anyone else of any nationality speaking English.

Now I find it’s all very good. So it’s like people who maybe last year might have said, “Oh no, this still isn’t not good enough,” it really is now, isn’t it, for a lot of use cases?

Thomas: Yes, there’s a kind of person who tried ChatGPT when it first came out. They tried GPT 3.5, they played around with it for a couple of hours, they weren’t impressed, and then they came to a conclusion.

The conclusion that they came to was not that this particular tool isn’t ready, but instead, the category of AI is no good.

What they haven’t realized is that so far in 2025 a new model that’s the best in the world has come out almost every 10 days.

Almost every episode of Author Update we’re like, “And there’s a new AI model on the top of the benchmarks.” It’s like they all take turns, and now they’re starting to snipe each other.

So Gemini was number one for like two days, and then Anthropic is, like, “Here,” and pushed them off.

Joanna: “Here’s Claude 4.”

Thomas: “You want to be number one. We’re going to take that away from you.” If you were to go back and use GPT now, even the free version, it would be dramatically better than that first experience you had.

Really where the power is once you start paying for the AI models. Once you’re using GPT-4.1 or -4.5, or Gemini 2.5 Pro. I really like Grok for research. I found that Grok’s Deep Search functionality is unbelievable.

It has real time access to knowledge and real time access to X. So for doing research on basically any topic, Grok has won in every test that I’ve done.

Joanna: Oh, that’s interesting. So I use o3.

My primary model is ChatGPT o3 for pretty much everything, unless it’s just something very basic that I would Google.

Then I use Deep Research on ChatGPT with o3, and also Gemini 2.5. So I do use Grok, but only when I’m on X. This is interesting—we’re going to come back to search—but interestingly, with all the stuff with the Deep Research, for example.

People listening, you get like, a 20- to 30-plus-page report on what you want to research with loads of sources and links, and most of them never, ever surface social media links. Grok on X obviously does, but that’s the only one. So I find that really interesting, too.

Thomas: Yes. In fact, that was one of the things I researched for my episode on AI optimization. I was curious which social networks affect which AI models, because some social networks affect all of the models, and some social networks have impacts on basically none.

TikTok and Bluesky don’t touch anything. You can be the biggest deal on TikTok, and none of the AI will know you exist.

YouTube influences Gemini. X is exclusively for Grok. Facebook and Instagram supposedly are tied to Llama.

Joanna: Who uses Llama?!

Thomas: Llama is so bad, it doesn’t matter if it’s connected to Facebook. Talking to all AI is like talking to a child, but talking to Llamas is like talking to a toddler that hasn’t quite figured out how the words work and how the sentences work.

You can learn to understand it, but it’s like, why bother when all the other AIs are like talking to middle schoolers who can now do research reports and are actually quite smart?

Joanna: I was going to say, yes, it depends on the context. Well, let’s bring it back. You mentioned the Google IO Conference, and I also went to the overviews of that.

Sundar Pichai said a few things. I’ve just got a quote here. He said,

“AI overviews have scaled to over 1.5 billion users in 200 countries, driving over 10% growth in the types of queries that show them.” Sundar Pichai

So if people have used Google, I guess in the last six months, really, but a lot more in the last month or so, is if you ask something on google.com and then you will get this AI overview.

So you don’t necessarily have to click into the article. So given that, I’ve heard it also called GEO, generative engine optimization, instead of SEO.

What are some of the principles that authors need to keep in mind if search is changing this way?

Thomas: So one of the fascinating things about AI is that it’s very much a last shall be first and the first shall be last technology. So it’s taken a lot of things that didn’t used to matter very much, and it’s making them suddenly matter a whole lot.

The two biggest winners of this new era is the author website, which has been kind of declining in popularity, particularly amongst indie authors because most indie authors are all in on Amazon all the time. They’re not wide. They dream of maybe someday going wide, but the KU money is just too good.

So if your only existence is on Amazon, it’s very easy to ask the question, why does my website matter? Now, the website did matter, right? Being able to sell direct was important. Being able to build your email list was important. Being able to communicate directly to readers was important.

There was a kind of author who’s like, “Eh, I’m just on Amazon. I can ignore the website.”

Now your website is your primary way of influencing large language models that train on the open web.

You can’t fully control Amazon, you can’t fully control anywhere else on the web, but you can control your own website down to the robots.txt file. You have full control over it.

That is really, really important for educating an LLM about your book, and about your book’s relationship to your other books, and about your book’s relationship to the other books in the world.

So it’s like, “This book is like this other book by this other author,” and your blog, on your website, is a really useful tool for that.

Joanna: You mentioned the word control, and that’s exactly what I’ve been thinking about. Now, I’ve had my own author websites since 2008. You know, old school like you.

I also have Shopify stores. Shopify is actually interesting in that they are going AI first, and there are rumors of some kind of collaboration between OpenAI and Shopify in terms of surfacing direct links, which is interesting in itself.

So, yes, your control, your author website. Also we’ve seen—well, we’re going to come back to Amazon—but they’re doing a lot of things with their own AI.

What are some specific things that we can put on our author websites? I mean, if I say, okay, so I’ve got an about page, which is about me. Then do I have a book page?

On a book page, what are some of the things that I might add that the LLMs would be interested in?

Thomas: So here’s the classic mistake.

An author gets started writing, and they have “Home”, “About”, “Book” and “Contact”. It’s kind of the classic author website. Then they write a second book, and they’re like, oh, well, I need to put this new book at the top of my book page, and I’ll rename it to “Books”.

Well, that is a blunder, believe it or not, because now you no longer have a page dedicated to either one of the books. So you’ve done the new book you just wrote a disservice, and you did your existing book a disservice.

So one really easy change that many of you listening can do right now is you just create a new page for each book, and you copy and paste the content from your Books page into each individual’s book page.

Then you make your Books page just a bunch of thumbnails for your covers. Big, beautiful covers, even bigger and more beautiful than the thumbnails on Amazon. They click on that cover, and it takes them to an entire page just about the book. So that’s step one. You can do that in 15 minutes.

Step two is now realizing this page isn’t just for my readers trying to decide about the book. This page is for large language models trying to understand my book. So you want to actually make that page as rich and as in-depth as possible.

You also want to make it really good for humans, right? So put discussion questions, have sample chapters, have your audio book resources. So I’m a big reader of fantasy, but I listen to fantasy books, and I really want to see the map.

When I go to an author’s website, it’s some low res garbage map, and I can’t see the towns, and it makes me very sad. All I want, fantasy authors, please, for the love of good maps, just upload a five gigabyte version of your map to your book page.

I will love it. AI will love it. Your readers will love it. It will make everyone happy, and it already exists on your hard drive. It’s what you put in your book. It’s not going to keep anyone from buying your book, the fact that they can get the map of your fantasy world for free.

That’s just one example of the sort of thing that you can put on your site. Also, frequently asked questions. If you do frequently asked questions, there’s a Schema, Schema.org that you can add to a page through Yoast SEO. So if you’re using WordPress, it really is the best for this sort of thing.

It’s called a Question Schema, where it will actually surface that question, not just on Google search, but also to the to the LLMs, where they’ll see the question and then see the answer. This will really reduce the likelihood of the LLMs hallucinating if somebody else asks that question, or a similar question to the LLM.

Joanna: So just on that frequently asked questions.

We just mentioned the AI overview on Google, if you have a frequently asked question on your website that it can easily pull from, it is more likely to do that.

Also useful is NotebookLM, where you can upload your book and it can actually generate those frequently asked questions for you.

So this is another thing I would say. I mean, again, read the terms and conditions but NotebookLM, in particular, says it doesn’t train on the data you upload into a Notebook, if people are worried about that. You can actually use the AI tools to help you build this material.

The other thing I was going to say on images, one of the things I was reading about is the alt text. Now, the alt text on images, we’ve been encouraged to use for accessibility reasons. So if somebody is blind or partially sighted, the alt text gets read when there’s an image.

Alt text is used by the LLMs when they’re going through a website.

Yes, they can “see” now, but they use the alt text. So is that something that you’ve considered? Because I guess I didn’t think about that before.

Thomas: So this is one of the techniques that I think is helpful right now and won’t be helpful in two or three years, because this is purely a way of you adding human labor to your website to save the bot from doing bot labor.

You can upload an image to GPT’s Image-1 Engine and ask it to describe it, and it can describe that image with paragraphs and paragraphs of detail, but for GPT to do that, it requires a lot of compute. They don’t have the compute to do that for all of the images on all of the websites on all of the internet.

Now, the compute cost is going down. You know, more efficient chips are coming out. The models are getting more efficient.

So several years from now, the AI will be able to just go to a page, look at the image, and generate a much more useful understanding of that image than what it can currently get with alt text.

In the meantime, adding some descriptive alt text could help before it’s understanding the image. Also, not all LLMs are multimodal, which I realize is a big term. So multimodal is being able to interact with text and image at the same time.

So GPT is, I would argue, the most multimodal. It’s just unbelievably good with images. I’m not a big fan of GPT in general, I find that the other models are better at most of the other specific use cases, but for images, it is just hands down the best.

It’s often the second best in every other category. So it’s a good one if you’re only using one.

Some of the other engines aren’t very good with images yet. I haven’t been impressed with Claude’s handling of images. Grok is only kind of so-so. Gemini has made some big steps forward, but I still think it’s behind GPT in image rendering.

So you’re also helping these other models more because, you know, Anthropic may not be able to describe the image in a very suitable way right now. It will in a few years, but right now, maybe not so good.

Joanna: It’s interesting you say that. I think ChatGPT o3, that is my favorite model. I don’t really use the 4-models. I also think where if people are saying, “Oh, well, you know, Thomas doesn’t rate it,” well, I think everyone prefers different models as well because of personality things.

A lot of writers like Claude, for example, for the more creative side of things.

As we’ve also said, If you don’t like a model this week, try again in a couple of weeks, and it may well have changed.

I mean, GPT-5 is rumored to be coming out, which I think will be interesting. One of the things is, you and I are quite technical, so we’re like, “Oh, this number and this letter,” but GPT-5, apparently it will do that for you. So you’ll just put your query in, and it will choose the best model for you, which I think will really help.

Thomas: Yes, one thing to help simplify this, because GPT has probably the worst naming schema in the history of naming. So they have GPT-4o and GPT-o4, which are entirely different models and have almost nothing to do with each other. Then they have 4.1, which is actually better than 4.5. So the numbering doesn’t work.

Then o3, which is based off of 4, is actually better at a lot of reasoning tasks. It’s very confusing. So let’s simplify it in a way that actually will help across all of the companies.

There’s kind of three main flavors of LLMs in terms of main features, and that is the kind of default model, default model with reasoning, which is what o3 does really well because it can actually think about your question.

So if you think about if somebody asked you a question, you can answer off the top of your head, or you can sit down with a piece of paper and kind of think about it a little bit. That left brain slow thinking is what we mean by reasoning. When you’re interacting with a reasoning model, it’s slower to get back to you because it thinks about it.

Then the third kind of model is deep research, where it will actually go and do research. I don’t know if you ever do this, Joanna, but on a live call, somebody will ask a question, and you’ll do a quick Google search to refresh your memory about that thing that they’re talking about. That’s kind of how the search functions.

It’s called Deep Search on Grok. I think it’s called Deep Research on GPT [and on Gemini]. Those three features are rolling out to all of the different models, and they’re useful in different ways.

So if you want a quick answer, you just want to talk to the core model, but if you want some deep, in-depth analysis, you want to turn on research, or maybe turn on thinking as well.

That’ll simplify it to make it not quite so confusing because if you’re not following this every week, the numbers and the letters and the models and the companies will just make your eyes water. It’s so complicated.

Joanna: Absolutely.

Or my tip is, whatever your favorite model is, you just say, “I want to do this. How can you help me do it?”

Most people aren’t as technical as we are, so they won’t necessarily be driving the machines in that way.

Let’s come back to the website. So I agree with you that sort of the last shall be first. So the author website has sort of fallen out of favor in many ways. For example, blogging.

I was blogging from 2008, and then about five years ago I stopped because there were some really, really good websites doing the kind of content I was. So I was like, right, I’m just going to do the podcast.

Of course, for our podcast, we have transcripts and all that. I thought, well, that gets indexed, and my site does still rank for lots of good things because of the podcast transcript.

So if people are now thinking, okay, well, if these AI engines want this rich content, but we don’t want to upload our books onto our website, for example, what are some of the other things they could put on the website? Is it just the book page, or—

Could people be thinking about other forms of content on their sites?

Thomas: So blogging is really powerful, and I will share this with your audience. I left it out of the blog version of my episode on AI optimization, but it’s in the audio and video version.

One of the big things that the LLMs look for when it comes to ranking a book is something called context, where it’s in relationships, specifically. So relational context is really important for LLMs, and you can guide that with a blog post.

So you can say, “The top 10 posts on such and such trope” or, “The top 10 authors who are similar to JF Penn.”

“So if you love JF Penn, you’ll love…” and you just got these other nine authors and includes JF Penn. So if I’m writing books that are similar to JF Penn, I would include my name in that list, and then train the LLMs to start associating our names and putting them in a semantic cluster. A blog is really powerful at this.

The other really good thing to do with blogging has been the best thing to do with blogging for the last 15 years, which is just answer questions. Your inbox fills up with questions, and so you just write one really good answer, you email it to that person, and then you copy and paste it to your blog.

Take out all the personal bits, add some bullets, add some headings. Now you’ve got a really good blog post that already existed in your outbox, that you know for sure a real human being asked. If one human being asked it, probably others asked it. If they’re not asking Google, they’re asking the LLM.

It’s not that much more work to have a blog of some kind, the topics of which are driven by your own readers.

Joanna: You mentioned there, it’s easier with nonfiction because people will ask questions about that. For example, on my Books and Travel, I did the Camino de Santiago, and people email me all the time saying, like, “What shoes did you wear for the Camino?” I mean, just a question like that.

It is in my book, and I have actually put it on the website now, but it’s interesting because that’s easier for nonfiction/memoir. For fiction, like you said, I have done blog posts in the past like, “10 Action Adventure Series with Female Main Characters,” stuff like that.

This is what I was also wondering, because if you use any of the LLMs, and you say, for example, “What do you know about author JF Penn?” and it will kind of look at everything.

I found that Goodreads is actually incredibly highly ranked.

I wonder if that’s because a lot of those posts, like you’re saying, are often on Goodreads, their blog. That’s literally what their blog is. They’re always posting lists of relational things, and obviously they’re owned by Amazon. What do you think about fiction authors in particular?

Would it be better to be posting lists of that kind of thing on Goodreads and/or their website?

Thomas: I love Listopia. That’s Goodreads’ list feature. I don’t think authors are allowed to add their own books to lists on Listopia, which means you’d have to work with a compatriot to add each other’s books into the list, which adds a little bit of friction.

Goodreads has become incredibly important because Goodreads is one of the only places on the internet that has Schema.org information on books. There’s actually no good way to add this to your website right now.

This is making me feel like I shouldn’t have given away MyBookTable, which is a WordPress plugin for making book pages that I developed years ago and I’m no longer a part. Yoast SEO doesn’t support the book schema, but Goodreads does.

So Goodreads has become like the go-to source for metadata and context and information about books. It also has reviews and rankings and relationships. It can look at shelves and which books are connected with which other books and shelves.

It’s actually really rich data, and unlike most other social networks, it doesn’t have a login wall to access pages. So you can go to any page on Goodreads without being logged into Goodreads, which means there’s no good mechanism to keep the bots away.

Having a Goodreads profile at 100% is really important.

You’re like, “But I never use Goodreads, and my readers don’t use Goodreads,” like, well, some of your readers do. The mega-readers, the readers who take chances on new authors, they’re all over Goodreads.

If somebody reads 300 books a year, they need Goodreads to find that 301st book. If somebody reads one book a year, they just go to the bookstore and buy whatever the James Patterson book is that’s facing the door.

So if you’re new to writing and you’re still just getting started, Goodreads was always important to you, but now it’s even more important, because now Goodreads is informing all of the networks.

So when I was doing my research, every single large language model—I don’t know about Llama, I don’t really care about Llama—but all the ones that matter, they all look at Goodreads quite a bit for informing their context about books.

Joanna: That is quite shocking for some people. You know, when I started in 2008, Goodreads was a separate company. It was really big. It still looks the same as it did.

Thomas: It’s like a time capsule to the days before social media got toxic.

Joanna: It really is. It’s quite horrible. So I guess maybe a decade ago, I was like, okay, I don’t really want to use this anymore. Also, a lot of us were focusing on going wide and building Shopify and all this. Then a couple of years ago I saw that, oh my goodness, Goodreads is becoming more important.

So I’ve really been making much more of an effort and asking people who buy direct to also review on Goodreads. Of course, let’s say you read on a Kindle, you read an Amazon device, if you rate a book at the end, that will automatically appear on Goodreads if you’ve connected your account.

Even if people aren’t writing reviews, all these ratings is another data point that does all the linking, like you’re saying. So I can’t see that another site can be as rich as Goodreads in the English language, I guess we should say. I think Goodreads is only in English, as far as I know.

So would this be more important than the author website updates? If people are like, oh my goodness, you two, you’ve just given us too much work—

Should people be thinking about updating Goodreads first, or the website?

Thomas: I think for most people, starting with Goodreads might make more sense because chances are your Goodreads page is already half built because Goodreads pulls data from Amazon.

So if you did a good job with your metadata and having a good Amazon page—which if you’ve been listening to Joanna Penn’s podcast for any amount of time, you’ve heard her harp on.

Joanna: Harp on?!

Thomas: You’ve heard me. I feel like I’m mentioning my metadata episode every single episode. I’m like, “Please. This is so important.” I don’t know if you if you harp on it, but I definitely harp on it.

So if you’ve been doing a good job with that, a lot of the Goodreads stuff is already done. So it’s just logging in, making sure account is attached to your author account, making sure all of the information is correct, tweaking the things that need to be corrected. You could be done in an hour.

Building out these web pages could be done in an hour or two if you’re savvy, but if you’ve never edited your website before, there’s actually a bit of a learning curve to do it the first time. If you had somebody build you your website, now it’s more complicated because you’ve got to go find that person and pay them.

So the website could be a higher amount of work, but it’s still really important. So don’t hear me say, “Oh, Goodreads, start there,” as an excuse to then stop there. Do your website as well.

Joanna: I guess we should also say that it’s early days. In 2008, do you remember back then it was, “It’s the year of mobile,” or, you know, 2010, 2012 was still the year of mobile. Like it was the beginning of mobile commerce and all that.

Nobody believed it for years, until one time everybody woke up and were like, “Oh, yes, you buy things on your phone. I suppose that’s what they were talking about.” This is the same thing. I mean, this is going to grow.

So right now, we’re still early, I think, on this. So yes, have a look at your Goodreads. Have a look at your website.

Let’s carry on. So you did mention norobots.txt earlier, which everyone’s like, “Oh no, no, that sounds complicated.” Or they’re saying, “Well, I don’t want things to search my site. I’m against AI, or I don’t want them to see my website or to search things that I’ve spent time doing.”

What will definitely stop the AI search engines? Why should we not do that?

Thomas: I think that some of the “all AI is evil all the time,” is actually being advocated by people who themselves use AI and don’t want other authors to have the competitive advantage that they have.

I don’t think it’s all of that, but I think that some of the most vocal people secretly have pen names where they’re making a lot of money with AI everything. It’s kind of like you’re the first farmer in town to get a tractor, and you’re way more productive on your farm than all the other farmers who are still doing it with their hoes and their backs.

If you can convince the other farmers that tractors are evil, or if you can get somebody else in the town to do that for you, then you can buy the fields from everyone else who’s doing the work with their backs.

So I’m not convinced that this fear is all in good faith. There is some of it. You know, some people all they know about AI is they watched The Matrix and they watched The Terminator, and it’s really scary.

Those people tend to not be very vocal because they don’t know the difference between a large language model and machine learning. Like in AI, it’s all just a bunch of jumble for them, and it’s all scary and evil and strange. That kind of person isn’t going to know how to put a norobots.txt file on their website.

I don’t think that LLMs.txt or norobots.txt are going to go anywhere. I think what’s going to happen with AI is the same thing that happened with mobile. So back in 2008 when it’s like the year of the mobile, if you remember, we were building mobile versions of our websites.

So you had the website, and then you had a completely separate website for mobile. Then in the early 20-teens, this new approach to web design called responsive web design was developed, where everything had percentages instead of fixed number of pixel widths. Pages could get big and they could get small.

Now you only had to build one version of a web page for both mobile and for web. The robots.txt file has plenty of space for instructions to LLMs and what you can and cannot do. We don’t need other txt files on a website to accomplish those purposes.

I think it’s simpler for everyone to just use the page we already have for talking to robots, rather than having other pages to also talk to robots, but say different things. So I may be wrong on this, but I don’t think the alternate files, norobots or LLMs, are going to take off.

I do think people are going to add instructions to robots.txt, and some of them will be encouraged by other authors, well-meaning or not, to start blocking the LLMs. I don’t think that’s going to work. For one, I don’t know how you block Google without blocking Google. It’s like, “Are you the Google search bot or the Google Gemini bot?”

“I’m the Google bot,” right?

Do you really want to block Google? You can. It’s your right, and Google won’t surface your website, but you have to be found if you want to be read.

You can’t hide in the wilderness and not let anyone read your book and then complain that no one’s reading your book.

You either want to be found or you don’t.

I think for some authors, they’re afraid of being found, and they may be using AI as an excuse. I think pretty soon, people are going to be paying money to get AI to learn about their books, this fear of AI doing it for free, I think, is going to go away pretty quickly.

Joanna: Well, yes. We should just come back to Amazon because people are like, “Oh, well, I don’t need to know any of this because I am just on Amazon,” but of course, Amazon is also moving to generative search.

I’m kind of annoyed because this mobile app that you have in the US with this Rufus shopping bot is now using it, and you can ask really detailed follow up questions, and it’s more granular, but I can’t see that because I’m in the UK.

I mean, I’m really pleased about this because I am sick of loading seven keyword terms into my metadata. If I give Amazon the whole book, I mean, surely they can do useful things and do all that themselves. It’s very rich data.

Is there anything that people need to do specifically with Amazon, other than listen to your metadata episode?

Thomas: So one advantage you have being in the UK is that you can still be blissfully unaware of how not great Rufus is. So I would rank Rufus above Llama and below all of the other LLMs.

I know that Amazon has a bunch of different AI models that they’re developing. I was doing some experiments with one of them—I forget what it’s called, started with an A—and it had the most delightful hallucination about me I have ever seen an AI do in my life.

So I got this tool where I had access to all the AIs, so I was asking them a lot of the same questions to see what answers they would give. It was like, “Thomas Umstattd is a professor of book marketing at Texas State University,” and then it started listing all of these book marketing books that I had written.

They were all vaguely associated with podcast episodes that I had done. It was all close enough to be believable, but none of it was true. It hallucinated an entirely different Thomas Umstattd. Like, oh, Amazon is behind on this AI thing.

So right now, Rufus, in my tests, is somewhat better than just a pure review search for answering product questions, but just barely. It’s not where the other AIs are at yet.

Now, Amazon, just this week as we’re recording this, signed a licensing deal with the New York Times. So they’re now the only company that has an agreement with the Times for licensing data for AI models. It used to be the New York Times didn’t matter for AI training because they had walled it off.

Joanna: They were suing OpenAI and all kinds of things. Microsoft.

Thomas: They were suing for big money, and Jeff Bezos is like, “Big money? I have big money.” So now they’ve got this really good source of data—or mediocre source of data, depending on your view of the New York Times—but they’re the only ones that have access to it.

That’s not going to fix Rufus’s ability to find the needle in the haystack in a bunch of book reviews. So Amazon will get there. If it worked better, you would have it in the UK.

People don’t want to give you the kind of mediocre stuff. They want royal quality for the UK. It’s like, “This isn’t good enough for the king, and the Brits aren’t going to take this trash. We’ll just keep it for the Colonials right now.”

Joanna: Oh, fair enough. Well, we should also say Amazon is a major investor in Anthropic, which does Claude. So it would be nice if they could use some of the Claude juice or something.

I mean, again, all these things are going to get better. So if people are like, “Oh, well, I don’t like the Amazon automatics review overviews,” or whatever, it’s like, look, all these things are going to get better and better.

Again, I want to stay really positive about this. As I said, I think we’ve been in the long tail for like 20 years already, right?

Now we’re in the very, very, very long tail when we’re thinking of generative search and the conversational search.

So I do a lot of book recommendations through ChatGPT, and often I’ll have gone backwards and forwards several times before I’m happy with the level of granularity I’m at.

No longer do we have the sort of basic keywords, but we’re having a whole conversation about what we like.

Or like you said, I sometimes just upload a screenshot or a picture of my whole bookshelf. I did this the other day, like with my bookshelf with probably hundreds of books on.

I said, “Here’s my bookshelf. What else might I like?” It can read all the books on the bookshelf and all of that. So I think, again, all of this is going to get better.

Thomas: I think it’s also going to reward good writing, especially that kind of relational stuff. So you have a really deep relationship with your o3 mini model, right? Like it knows you really well. You’ve spent months, maybe years, building its context window. So it has a good sense of your preferences.

This is one area where GPT really shines, as like a per user context window that persists across conversations. So when you ask your o3 for a recommendation, it has really good knowledge of books.

The GPT book recommender is already really good, and it has really good knowledge of you. So it’s going to make very likely very good recommendations, and those recommendations are likely going to be the kind of books that are well written.

So as we talk about Schema.org and all these technical things, don’t forget the fact that none of this will fix a bad book. None of this will fix a bad book.

If your book is not fun to read, if it’s not engaging, if it doesn’t pull readers in, if it doesn’t leave them happy at the end, or they’re leaving a good review, if it doesn’t deliver on its promises, then it’s not going to matter.

Like these things are great tiebreakers, and they can be really helpful if you’re obscure, to move you from obscurity to notoriety. You can’t make that move if your book doesn’t thrill readers.

Your book has to thrill readers first.

I probably should have started with this. This is not like a “get out of learning the craft of writing” free card. It’s just the opposite, actually, because the AI is much more discriminating on quality than the search engines were.

You type a search into Amazon, and it’s going to surface whoever paid the most first. Then it will pick, based off of the very limited information you gave it, some books to rank.

None of that really had much to do with the writing. Some of it was connected. You know, it would look at review data and sales data and things like that, but a lot of it just became self-reinforcing. Popular books got more attention, which made them more popular.

My hope is that these new AI recommendation engines will have more nuance and make better recommendations.

It will also be better for people on the fringes of society.

So I’m not sure how it is in the UK, but like conservatives got pushed out of publishing. There’s hardly any conservatives in the traditional publishing world. If you’re writing a book for a conservative audience, it’s hard to find your readers right now. Whereas I think AI is going to help bridge that gap.

Conservative authors and conservative readers are going to be able to find each other and they’re going to get really excited. That’s true with every kind of niche group of readers and authors that were really limited by the search engines that were really reductive.

Now all this nuance is going to be like, “Oh, you’re interested in this kind of unique sub-genre that doesn’t have a category in Amazon. Well, guess what? I’ve read all of the books in that, and here’s the best one that I think you’ll like really well,” and suddenly you’re reading more books.

I think this is going to be good for the industry overall.

Joanna: Yes, I think so too. It should reduce, or hopefully reduce, that sort of paid ad effect.

Although, inevitably, these companies are going to have to monetize more than they are now. So it’ll be very interesting how it changes.

So I’m also really interested in what else is coming. Now, people have been kind of saying agents and agentic AI for a while, but mostly these have been assistants.

So something like Deep Research reports, they’re kind of an agent. You give them a task, “go research this,” and then it goes away and it will come back and bring you a report. So it’s early days.

What is really interesting to me is zero-click. So zero-click with agents. So, for example, I just booked some trips in the US to Antelope Canyon, and I got my Deep Research report, but I still had to go buy the tour. I did go with its recommendation.

“Zero-click,” I say to my agent, my travel agent, let’s say, “go and find me the best trip to Antelope Canyon. Here’s my budget, and just arrange it. You know what I like in terms of hotels and the brands I like and all of that. Go do it.”

People are like, “Oh, no, that’s years off,” but Visa, the Visa card, now has intelligent commerce. So they actually have a card you can use with an agent, so you essentially task it with buying for you.

I was thinking about this with books. It’s like, “Here’s my bookcase. This is what I like. Here’s my budget per month. Just send me a book a week, or buy me some cool books and deliver them to my house.” I’m like, actually, that’s quite fun.

With ‘zero click’ + agents, the human never does the browsing, the human never clicks, and things turn up.

So what do you think about this?

Thomas: I think AI agents are going to start creating zones of the internet that are devoid of humans, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. So the first place we saw this was actually about two decades ago, and it was the stock market.

So if you’ve ever seen an old 1980s video of the stock market, there’s actual men in suits with pieces of paper, and they’re all shouting at each other. Then somebody was like, “Oh, we’ll connect it to computers.” So then somebody had to type on the computer to place an order.

Then there was one company that literally created a robot that just typed on the keys because the NASDAQ wouldn’t allow automated orders, so something had to push the keys on the keyboard. Then they’re like, “Okay, this is stupid. You can just place the orders.”

Then they’re like, okay, well, let’s create AIs that will evaluate a stock’s price and make purchases. Now almost all of our stocks are managed by agentic AIs. So we moved away from mutual funds into something called an exchange traded fund, which is entirely run by an AI. It’s algorithmic. This has been around for 10 or 15 years.

Now the New York Stock Exchange is a film set, and if you go there today, it’s just a bunch of reporters reporting on what the computers are doing. Stock trading is no longer the getting the call from the pushy salesman about this really good scoop on such and such stock that you’ve got to buy and this real scammy thing.

We were taking a lot of our really smartest people and putting them in a room and having them shout at each other to buy and sell. I don’t think that was the best use of those really smart people.

Now those smart people are doing other things that are more beneficial for the economy than shouting at each other to buy and sell shares of IBM or whatever. So that’s what we’re going to see with these other agents and these other sectors.

So you buying a ticket for a train, that’s not a very emotionally rewarding experience for you to buy that ticket. For the person selling you the ticket, it’s not a very emotionally rewarding experience for them either.

Nobody wanted to grow up, like when they were a kid thought, “Like all I want to do when I grow up is sell tickets for trains and answer questions from tourists who are all asking the same stupid questions over and over again, and I’ve answered this question 500 times this week.” Having an AI handle that is going to be better.

I think it’s going to be slow. I think right now we’re in the phase where early adopters like us are playing with it, but right now we’re building our own agents.

I think a good model to look at is the spreadsheet. So back in the 80s and 90s, we’d have Microsoft Excel, and you could build your own spreadsheet. The 2000s have all been about taking features that you could do yourself in Excel and building a whole product around it.

Now there’s a website that does that thing that Excel could do, but the website is for just one purpose, for one kind of user, and it does that same sort of thing. I think we’re going to see that same thing with AI because most people don’t want to create their own agents.

They don’t want to create their own personal AI butler. They want to buy an AI butler off the shelf that does just one thing. So don’t feel like you have to learn how to build your own agents in order to use them, you’ll just have to wait. Who knows, maybe Joanna Penn will build some AI agents that she can rent out in the future.

Joanna: I mean, it is interesting to think where it’s going to go. I tend to put this in the general category. For example, we’ve just talked about updating your Goodreads pages or updating your website. Hell, I don’t want to do that, so I will just get my admin agent to do that.

Right now, there isn’t one particular thing that can do that. I can do it with AI, but I’ll still have to drive it. Whereas, I don’t know, I mean, let’s talk about ads as well. Mark Zuckerberg has repeatedly said that all you’ll need to do on Meta—because, let’s face it, Meta ads are just awful now. They’re so complicated.

What he said is, you’ll be able to say, “This is my book. This is the page I want to drive traffic to. Off you go. Meta will do all the creative, do everything, and here’s a budget.” I don’t have to do anything at all except say, “This is what I want to sell.” That will be great. I think authors will be all over that.

Most people want to do the writing, and they do not want to do the marketing, as you know.

So I think there are some great use cases. I don’t know how long that’s going to take. I mean, Zuckerberg has said end of next year I think, 2026.

Thomas: Well, it’s already here for websites, actually. So if listening to Joanna and I talk about websites stressed you out, if you get Divi from Elegant Themes, it has AI built in, and you can just tell it to build you a homepage and what you want on it, and it will just do it.

I played around with this a couple of weeks ago because I was like, can AI really build a web page? And it did. I was kind of flabbergasted. I went in and tweaked and added, and I would copy what it did and add more things to make the page longer, but it’s like it’s already here.

It’s already here a little bit for advertising too. The Amazon auto-targeting has gotten a lot better.

Joanna: I do use that.

Thomas: Yes, and it’s self-reinforcing. So if you want to understand what machine learning is, there’s some really good like cartoons on YouTube you can look up, but machine learning is the computer kind of getting better on its own, like improving itself.

These ad engines are using machine learning to get better every month. So if you tried auto-targeting on Facebook or auto-targeting on Amazon a few months ago, just realize that they’re now better because the machine learning is training the algorithm.

There’s not some developer at meta going, click, click, click, to tweak the algorithm. The algorithm is tweaking itself. Facebook’s algorithm has been tweaking itself for over a decade. For people who are against AI and they complain about it on Facebook, I hate to tell you this, but you’ve been using AI on Facebook.

Joanna: Or buying on Amazon or using Google.

Thomas: It’s like, Facebook particularly, the entire experience is AI, start to finish. It’s like, “Oh, but I don’t want you to have AI. I only want this powerful Californian to have AI, not the regular people.” Like, okay, now we’re getting to a class conversation. This isn’t really about AI anymore.

Joanna: Well, I mean, we could talk about this forever because you and I geek out on this. There are some people who are like, seriously, how is everything changing so fast, and how are you two so relaxed about the fact that everything is changing?

So how are you staying positive and curious? Obviously, there are bad things about AI, which, you know, we try and stay on the positive side of things.

Any tips for people who need encouragement to keep going in this time of change?

You know, they thought they knew the rules, and now it seems like the rules are changing yet again.

Thomas: You’re not going to believe this answer, but I’m actually going to encourage you to study history, because we’re not actually living in a time of rapid change compared to what our great great grandparents went through.

My great great grandfather was born in 1880, and the steam engine was new, that we were just starting to have the Industrial Revolution. When he was a child, the first car rolled into his town, a horseless carriage. Then suddenly there was electric light bulbs.

The telegraphs that had already existed when he was a kid, now there was lines that would go to people’s houses, and they could actually hear a voice of somebody on the other side of town, and even the other side of the country.

It didn’t stop there. Then a few years later in his life, something flew over the town that was heavier than air, and yet floating in the sky. Then before this man died, there was an American putting an American flag on the moon. That’s not to mention radio, and the nuclear bomb, and like so much innovation.

Then we invented the semiconductor in the 1960s, 1970s, and then the innovation basically ended. After that, it was all of this really slow iteration where the transistors got smaller and smaller, the computers got faster and faster.

There wasn’t this big, life changing technology, like what we were getting every two years in the late 1800s and early 1900s, until you have kind of critical mass of the transistors where they get cheap enough to enter people’s homes. Then we have computers, and we have the internet.

We’ve had the internet for a long time. Like the internet’s not new. It goes back to the 70s in the States. The World Wide Web was developed by a Brit in the 1980s. Then we didn’t have much innovation, right? Web pages got a little bit more complicated, animation got a little bit better. Really slow evolutionary change.

Then the phones came around, and the phone was a big shift, but from a technological perspective, the phone wasn’t that different than a computer. It’s just smaller. So that same trend of smaller and lighter.

So in this way, AI is the first time for me to experience the kind of transformation that my great, great grandfather went through, but on a much smaller scale.

Like the tractor was unbelievably disruptive. One man in the town with the tractor could do the work of 10 men, which meant that those other nine men had to find something else to do to provide for their families. What it was doing things for the farmer, because the farmer was now making almost the same money.

So this is the flip side, the people who use AI—there’s actually a report that just came out yesterday about industries where —

People are using AI, they’re three times more productive and they’re making 50% more money on that individual worker perspective.

So just like what happened with the tractor, there’s nothing new under the sun. The guys who left the farm and started doing jobs for the farmer, those jobs are actually super rewarding. It’s things like being a podcaster.

Like, I could not have my job of being a podcaster if there wasn’t some blessed farmer somewhere in the sun and toil on his tractor making food for me, because I can’t make food. I can hardly keep my grass alive. I realize in the UK, grass just grows on its own, but in Texas, it’s a fight. It wants to wither and die in the sun.

So I’m really thankful that I’m not working in the fields like my ancestors did. So, yes, there’s going to be some disruption, but the history of technology shows us that technology creates more jobs than it destroys.

95% of us were working in the fields back in the day, and that was awful, awful work for little pay. It was back breaking. It killed us, literally killed us. I don’t think anybody wants to go back to that.

Technology isn’t good or evil. People are good or evil.

So I’m not afraid of AI. I am very afraid of humans and what humans will do with AI, but I’m too much of a Texan to let those humans have AI and me not to have AI, too. The only thing that can stop a bad man with AI is a good man with AI.

Joanna: Or a good woman!

Thomas: Or a good woman.

Joanna: No, I mean, I think so too. We need to be on the side of the angels, and the more we’re involved, that’s the other thing. Obviously, people listening, Thomas and I are interested in the technical side, but you don’t have to be super technical anymore to get involved.

The more creatives and other types of people who are getting to grips with these tools, the more they will represent the whole of humanity.

So that’s why I try and encourage people. But also, you’re right, it does make you more productive.

Also it’s a lot of fun, so I have fun with my AIs like every day. So, yes, lots for people to think about. We’re out of time, so—

Where can authors find you and everything you do online?

Thomas: So my website is AuthorMedia. That’s where you can find all three of my podcasts. I have a suite of over 30 AI tools that are really easy to use. They’re very specific things like an About Page builder, where you answer a few questions about yourself, and it will write a very interesting about page for you.

Or you upload your book cover, and it will analyze the cover and give you tips on how to make it better. Or create a chapter summary.

I even have a tool here called “Not a Literary Agent” that can review contracts and even write a rights reversal letter based off of the contract that you signed with that publishing company 10 years ago. And creating book blurbs. There’s a bunch of different tools that are there.

My hope with these tools is that they’re kind of training wheels for using AI, because they’re really easy. You just answer a few questions, and you push a button, and that’s it. So you don’t actually have to be good with AI to try using these tools.

I’ve gotten just incredible feedback from folks who’ve tried these out. One, you just upload your book, and it creates a strategy for advertising on Amazon. Like a five page strategy based off the content of your book, including who to target and how to target them.

So my hope is these will help make you more productive. They’re almost all focused on marketing. So they’re not going to help you write the book, they’re going to help you sell the book because that’s my focus. If you want to learn how to learn how to write the book, listen to Joanna Penn.

Novel marketing is more focused on getting more sales for the book you already wrote.

Joanna: So those tools, is that on AuthorMedia.com?

Thomas: Yes.

Joanna: Okay, so that’s fantastic. Definitely have a listen to Thomas’s podcast as well. Well, thanks so much for joining me today, Thomas. That was great.

Thomas: Thank you for having me.

The post Book Discoverability In An Age Of AI. GEO For Authors With Thomas Umstattd Jr. first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Author: Joanna Penn

/ Jun 12, 2025 / Comments Off on Book Discoverability In An Age Of AI. GEO For Authors With Thomas Umstattd Jr.

How to Write Different Character Arcs for the Same Character (Part 1 of 2)

One of the most interesting challenges of writing a series is figuring out how to create different character arcs for the same character, without it feeling repetitive or forced. Whether you’re writing a progressive arc that unfolds over several books or you’re exploring entirely different arcs in each installment, the goal is always to keep the character’s journey fresh and meaningful.

Last month I shared a post about developing different character arcs using the Enneagram personality system. However, after writing that post (and its follow-up about how to unite the Enneagram with the archetypal Life Cycle for even deeper character arcs), I realized I hadn’t quite got to the heart of the question that inspired that original post, from Zoe Dawson:

What is your take on using the Enneagram nine personality types and constructing their Lies so that it’s not repetitious for each story?

Although Zoe’s question was specifically about the Enneagram, the deeper underlying dilemma is one any author writing more than one story will eventually face: How can you make sure you’re writing varied and interesting character arcs—rather than just repeating yourself?

This quandary may ring true in a number of different scenarios:

  • You’re writing a series in which each book features progressive character arcs that all tie into a larger overarching arc.
  • You’re writing a series that features a thematically new and independent character arc for each story.
  • You’re writing multiple unrelated books and want each one to be fresh and different.

Writing Your Story’s Theme (Amazon affiliate link)

Today, I want to dig deeper into the big picture of how to construct Lies the Character Believes, character arcs, and themes that don’t repeat from story to story. This week, we’ll dig into some specific tools and frameworks that can help you shape varied arcs; next week, we’ll explore some general principles to keep in mind.

To get us started, here’s an idea I’ve always found resonant and that can be helpful to keep inmind when seeking to vary your writing:

We all have one story to tell and we just go on telling it in different ways.

Now, is that explicitly true?

Certainly not.

I, for one, have written one novel after another that is completely different from one another. And yet, I do feel that every story in an author’s body of work must ultimately point to the deeper truths and themes of the foundational story that is the author’s own life. No matter how much you may (or may not) change the outer trappings in your story (genre, setting, plot focus, etc.), the underlying thrust and focus will always be you.

Click to enlarge.

I don’t see this as a drawback. I see it as the most compelling offering every author brings to their readers. In fact, I would suggest you might be most successful in varying your character arcs across books once you can realize the thrust of your own underlying interest and intention. For example, no author was perhaps more famous for writing a legion of staggeringly quirky and unique characters than Charles Dickens, yet even a cursory familiarity with his stories shows the underlying cohesion of the author’s focus on social issues, particularly the plight of the city’s poor. As you brainstorm new and different character arcs for your stories, it might be worthwhile to start by first identifying what actually makes them the same.

BBC Little Dorrit Charles Dickens

Little Dorrit (2008), BBC / WGBH Boston.

In This Article:

6 Progressive Personality and Development Systems to Write Different Character Arcs for the Same Character

Let’s start where this question is trickiest: How to write different character arcs for the same character?

One powerful way to write different character arcs for the same character is to ground the character’s growth in a larger developmental framework. Just like real people, characters evolve through recognizable stages—emotionally, psychologically, and even spiritually. Mapping your characters’ journeys to a progressive system can offer a shortcut for creating arcs that feel both fresh and cohesive across a series.

The following models can offer useful blueprints for tracking your characters’ inner evolution and continuing to shift the lens through which they experience the world.

1. The Five Foundational Character Arcs

Creating Character Arcs (Amazon affiliate link)

The basic “shape” of foundational character arcs can, in themselves, guide you to resonant variations. These foundational arcs (which I talk about in-depth in my book Creating Character Arcs and elsewhere) are:

Heroic Arcs

  1. Positive Change Arc
  2. Flat Arc

>>Click here to read more about the Heroic Arcs.

Negative Change Arcs

  1. Disillusionment
  2. Fall
  3. Corruption

>>Click here to read more about the Negative Arcs.

You can mix and match these arcs from story to story to create vastly varied experiences. The simplest approach is to observe the natural connections among them, especially between the two Heroic Arcs and the three Negative Change Arcs, respectively.

The Positive Change Arc—in which the character overcomes a limited Lie-based perspective and gains a broader Truth-based perspective—leads naturally into a subsequent Flat Arc—in which the character can stand upon this newly gained Truth to inspire change in others.

Likewise, the Negative Arcs can be crafted as part of a larger cycle. The character might undergo a Disillusionment Arc—in which a difficult new Truth creates a vulnerability that may lead to resistance or resentment. This can then easily lead into a Fall Arc, in which the character bolsters resistance to the Truth by investing in greater and greater Lies. This easily leads into the still worse Corruption Arc, in which a character who once had the opportunity and advantage of recognizing the Truth instead opts to reject it utterly.

2. The Life Cycle of Archetypal Character Arcs

In my book Writing Archetypal Character Arcs, I fleshed out the mythic lens of storytelling beyond just the Hero’s Journey to explore the full gamut of the human Life Cycle. Each of these six foundational archetypal character arcs naturally leads one into the other, making them perfect for a series in which you wish to explore an ever-maturing character.

These six foundational archetypes are:

  1. The Maiden (Individuation)
  2. The Hero (Service)
  3. The Queen (Leadership)
  4. The King (Sacrifice)
  5. The Crone (Surrender)
  6. The Mage (Transcendence)

You can find even more possibilities for variation—while adhering to a solid thematic throughline—by also exploring the six Flat archetypes and the twelve shadow archetypes that accompany each of the primary archetypes.

Graphic by Joanna Marie Art.

3. Enneagram Map of Health

Last month, I offered quite a few new tools and perspectives for using the Enneagram personality system to develop your character arcs. One particularly useful aspect I did not touch on was the stages of growth inherent to each type. In their book Personality Types, Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson map nine stages for each type, ranging from healthy to average to unhealthy. Each of these stages could be fleshed out into a full character arc with the stages advanced in either direction, depending on whether you wanted to ultimately tell a story of a character who changes positively or negatively.

For example, the nine stages of Type Eight (the Challenger) are listed like this (from healthy to unhealthy):

  1. The Magnanimous Heart
  2. The Self-Confident Person
  3. The Constructive Leader
  4. The Enterprising Adventurer
  5. The Dominating Power Broker
  6. The Confrontational Adversary
  7. The Ruthless Outlaw
  8. The Omnipotent Megalomaniac
  9. The Violent Destroyer

4. Spiral Dynamics

Created by Don Beck and Chris Cowan, Spiral Dynamics is a model of human development that maps how individuals and societies evolve through increasingly complex value systems. Each stage—represented by a color—reflects a particular worldview, from basic survival to tribal loyalty to achievement and beyond. In character development, Spiral Dynamics can help you explore how a character’s core motivations and beliefs shift over time. As they move up (or regress down) the spiral, they may adopt new values, question old assumptions, or clash with characters operating from different stages, all of which can offer rich material for varied arcs across a series.

The currently recognized stages or “memes” of the spiral are:

  1. Beige (SurvivalSense): Basic survival priorities (e.g., food, water, shelter, safety).
  2. Purple (KinSpirits): Tribal loyalty, superstition, tradition.
  3. Red (PowerGods): Dominance, ego, power, and asserting control over others (also called the Warlord meme).
  4. Blue (TruthForce): Order, rules, morality, and obedience to a higher purpose or authority.
  5. Orange (StriveDrive): Achievement, success, science, and rational progress.
  6. Green (HumanBond): Equality, empathy, community, and consensus-driven values.
  7. Yellow (FlexFlow): Integration, systems thinking, flexibility, and personal responsibility.
  8. Turquoise (GlobalView): Holistic awareness, unity, and spiritual consciousness.

5. The Four Stages of Alchemy

Originally developed in the Middle Ages as a supposed process of turning lead into gold, the stages of alchemy are now recognized as a symbolic representation of … you guessed it, character arcs! (Aka, psychological development. Potato. Potahto.) A few years ago, I shared a post showing how the four stages of alchemy map perfectly onto the four quarters of story structure and, therefore, character arc. However, you can also choose to represent each stage as an entire arc of its own, allowing a four-story cycle to reveal the final alchemy. For that matter, many explorations of alchemy posit many more stages than just four, which could allow you to both lengthen and deepen your story arc.

The four basic stages of alchemy are:

  1. The Nigredo (The Blackening): Descent into darkness, confusion, breakdown, ego death.
  2. The Albedo (The Whitening): Purification and clarity, recognizing truth, separating from illusion.
  3. The Citrinitas (The Yellowing): Insight, illumination, integration, growing wisdom.
  4. The Rubedo (The Reddening): Wholeness, rebirth, final transformation into the true self.

6. Four Stages of Knowing

Earlier this year, I similarly explored how the popular “four stages of knowing” also map neatly onto the four quadrants of a story’s development. Just as with the alchemical process, you can also stretch these stages to explore each aspect of the transformation more deeply in multiple evolving character arcs.

The Four Stages of Knowing are:

  1. Not Knowing That You Don’t Know: Unconscious ignorance.
  2. Knowing That You Don’t Know: Conscious ignorance.
  3. Not Knowing That You Know: Unconscious competence.
  4. Knowing That You Know: Conscious competence.

***

All of these frameworks—whether psychological, mythic, philosophical, or symbolic—can offer powerful scaffolding for exploring different character arcs for the same character without losing cohesion or authenticity. Not only can they help you avoid repetition, they can also support you in uncovering the deeper throughline of meaning that connects your stories to each other—and to you!

Next week, we’ll zoom out for a big-picture look at some guiding principles and narrative strategies you can use to vary your character arcs across multiple books or series. We’ll explore how to make your arcs feel intentional and fresh without straying too far from the heart of what makes your storytelling uniquely yours. Stay tuned!

In Summary

When writing multiple stories—whether within a series or across a body of work—one of the most powerful ways to ensure fresh and meaningful character arcs is to root them in the natural evolution of human development. By drawing on progressive models like the five foundational arcs, archetypal Life Cycle, Enneagram growth stages, Spiral Dynamics, and other systems, you can create nuanced journeys that build upon one another rather than repeat. Recognizing your own thematic throughline as an author only deepens the authenticity of these arcs. Next week, we’ll look at broader storytelling principles that can help you vary arcs across books, even outside of progressive systems.

Key Takeaways

  • Repetition in character arcs is a common challenge for writers of series or multiple books, but it can be overcome with intention and structure.

  • Developmental models like the five foundational character arcs or the archetypal Life Cycle can offer a roadmap for evolving your character’s journey meaningfully across books.

  • The Enneagram and Spiral Dynamics can offer deep personality and value-system frameworks that naturally lend themselves to transformation over time.

  • Alchemy and symbolic systems can add depth and metaphorical resonance to character progression.

  • Discovering your own thematic signature as an author can be a compass for creating unique yet unified arcs across your body of work.

Want More?

If you’re looking to deepen your understanding of character development and ensure your cast evolves in meaningful, thematically resonant ways, my book Writing Archetypal Character Arcs offers a powerful framework. It explores six foundational arcs—Maiden, Hero, Queen, King, Crone, and Mage—that reflect universal patterns of growth and transformation. Whether you’re crafting a protagonist’s journey or exploring contrasting arcs for supporting characters, this resource can help you weave rich, symbolic layers into your storytelling. It’s perfect for anyone wanting to write dynamic character arcs for different characters across a standalone novel or an entire series. It’s available in paperback, e-book, and audiobook.

Wordplayers, tell me your opinions! How do you approach writing different character arcs for the same character in a series or across multiple books? Tell me in the comments!

Click the “Play” button to Listen to Audio Version (or subscribe to the Helping Writers Become Authors podcast in Apple Podcast, Amazon Music, or Spotify).

___

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The post How to Write Different Character Arcs for the Same Character (Part 1 of 2) appeared first on Helping Writers Become Authors.

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Author: K.M. Weiland | @KMWeiland

/ Jun 09, 2025 / Comments Off on How to Write Different Character Arcs for the Same Character (Part 1 of 2)

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